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View Diary: Crimea Votes For Russia: EU Immediate Sanctions Look Mild (234 comments)

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  •  95%? (9+ / 0-)

    lol!

    They didn't even try hard to hide the fact that the vote was a farce.

    Gotta love how people got to vote twice and Russian citizens got to vote, too.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:26:54 PM PDT

    •  The people who were opposed (9+ / 0-)

      to the referendum boycotted it.

      •  And yet they had 65% turnout. (14+ / 0-)

        It seems entirely plausible that a strong majority of Crimea wants to secede from Ukraine.

        •  I am inclined that is true. (7+ / 0-)

          They really do have more links of various sorts to Russia than they do to the west.

        •  or it seems the 65% number is BS? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, LordMike, Hey338Too

          We saw this kind of vote just a week or so ago - in North Korea.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:42:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I doubt that it is total fiction. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fcvaguy, notrouble, ChadmanFL, Smoh

            There are a substantial number of people there who have real practical interests that tie them to Russia. Under international law this is not a legitimate way to go about it, but that doesn't mean that it is a complete farce.

            •  Real practical interest to ties with russia... (0+ / 0-)

              ....but not become Russian citizens.  Remember that Russian speaking people in Ukraine have way more rights and freedoms than their brethren in Russia, and they know that.

              "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

              by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:53:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Then again, armed coup d'etat is not a legitimate (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Duckmg, Lepanto, Catesby, LanceBoyle

              way to go about electoral change, but the US and West went right along with it immediately.

              It's strange, after the last dozen years or so to talk of Law, and not raw power, as if it had anything to do with international relations. Except, of course, when it is trade agreements giving privileges to multinational corporations and banks. Then the Law is scrupulously observed.


              Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

              by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:07:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What were they going to do about it? n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL
                •  If we didn't recognize the government then (4+ / 0-)

                  we couldn't send them the -- what $1.5B is it so far? -- maybe send that money to Detroit, or Cleveland, or ... how many cities do we have crumbling at the moment?

                  Personally I think the notion that backing a regime which got in on the backs of assaults carried out by virolent nazis who've been in intense training for war for years is not a good move on our part. But around DKos, it looks like that's just me.


                  Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                  by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:23:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nationalists does not equal Nazi.... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tony Situ, bluezen

                    It's high time that that Russian-promoted fallacy comes to an end.

                    Are there "nazis" in europe?  You bet?  About 10% and growing. Are pro-independent Ukranians Nazis?  No.  In fact, Russia has objectively brutalized minorities in their country.  Ukraine... perhaps there have been isolated incidents here and there, but certainly Jewish and even Russian leaders in the region have spoke publicly in support of their safety under the current government.

                    "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                    by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:51:04 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh fuck just educate yourself, will you please? (5+ / 0-)

                      Read their own damned words from their own damned websites, can you do that and THEN have an opinon? Embedded in this link: http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      Read the whole thread btw as the exclusion of the 2nd largest Party in the new government is detailed by others, as well as the opposition to women's rights. Poke around THEIR OWN websites and you can find what they really think about 'democracy.' Look around a bit more, or maybe it was Right Sektor which wrote about 'eliminate the intellectuals' of the 'Black Ukrainians' which means Jews, Slavs, and Poles.

                      (Tip: drop the 'en' in the comments embedded URL and then run the URL through Google's URL translate. Otherwise the embedded links won't work I recently discovered)

                      Everyone keeps talking about Russian propaganda. What? Putin came in and wrote the nazi's website's words?

                      But thank heavens the US population is never subjected to US propaganda, eh?

                      As to speaking about their safety with nazis in control of police and security and military and justice you might get some understanding and perspective from reading words of top Rabbis in Germany after January 1932. I assure you they didn't say "these nazi motherfuckers have got to go." I'm just as certain that's what they felt.

                      Or go ask Jews who aren't in the Ukraine what they think. Like the World Jewish Congress who asked that Svoboda and other 'neo-nazi' parties be banned in Europe back in 2012.

                      Face it. We're backing a nazi-heavy government. And this close to absolute power: you really think they're going to melt away and not try to get it all?

                       


                      Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                      by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:35:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  jimp -- maybe you should take some of your own (0+ / 0-)

                        advice, when it comes to educating oneself about who's a nazi:

                        http://www.dailystormer.com/...

                        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                        by bluezen on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:12:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If someone states their ideology is based (0+ / 0-)

                          on a Ukrainian who was an anti-Semite who worked with Nazi Germany and wrote they were right to kill all the Jews rather than assimilate them;
                          they have a racialist view of the world;
                          they show up at Nazi War Criminal trials in support of the accused;
                          they put forward theories of Russian-Jewish conspiracies against their nation;
                          they use white supremacist symbols and flags (including the swastika);
                          they advocate ethnic purity and cleansing;
                          they name parts of their internal organization after Joseph Goebbels;
                          and if in their own statements they talk about 'eliminating the intellectuals' of their enemies...

                          well, damn, they can call themselves Daisies; call themselves, or you can call them, Alfalfa Venus Under Fried Tuesday because words just aren't connected to reality in any way.  

                          Nazis near control of a European State is what we've got going there.

                          As to your link: Look at the nazis in the 1920s through the Night of the Long Knives. They varied in emphasis and direction, even to the point of death. So your point is?

                          As I've commented in several places, the white supremacist movement of all the European nations, plus the English-speaking world, are in communication and they desire greater coordination.

                          You're citing a Greek nazi statement which just happens to cover the ass of the Ukrainian nazis, who right now are trying to get alliances with the West who are astonishingly quite on the topic.

                          And regardless, even if the Greek nazis said 'the Ukrainian nazis not nazis but Jews and Texans,' the people who align themselves, harmonize themselves. with nazism are the Ukrainians in question. (And there's the reason "Duh!" was invented.)

                          Ukrainian opinion trumps Greek opinion about Ukrainian self-identification. Which, based on their own words, is with -- well, why would that be a question?


                          Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                          by Jim P on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 12:44:52 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  don't try to palm off your abuses of logic on ME. (0+ / 0-)

                            you're the one who's using the rw elements in the ukraine to excuse that megalomaniac autocrat in moscow's actions.

                            if you don't care for rw/fascist/neo-nazi's you should have issues with putin. it's pretty obvious that you do not.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                            by bluezen on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:05:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Why rush to embrace a provisional government (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ChadmanFL

                    without a mandate and consisting of an uneasy mix of Social Democrats and extreme right-wing nationalists? We don't yet know who Ukrainians are going to elect to lead them in May, we don't yet know if they're going to renege on their debts, we don't yet know if the IMF is going to put them on a Greek-Style austerity regime, we don't yet know if they're going to recklessly escalate the conflict with Russia.

              •  The "coup" as you called it... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bluezen

                ...which isn't really a coup since the president was legally impeached, but even if you call it a coup was an accident.  People got carried away after being... you know... shot in the streets for demonstrating against... well, being shot in the street.  The president of Ukraine was not a paragon of virtue by any means.  He was universally hated for his crimes.  It would have been better that the overthrow had not succeeded, but these things can spiral out of control.

                "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:19:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It was a coup (5+ / 0-)

                  we can debate about the degree of our involvement, but it was a coup.  an unconstitutional transfer of power.  Perhaps a morally unobjectionable one, but it was a coup.

                  •  and moreover, a coup that installed an interim (4+ / 0-)

                    government that we recognized as legitimate with unbelievably indecent haste

                    with such haste that one will always be puzzled as to what was really going on behind the scenes

                    not to mention the fortuitous coincidence of Vicky's boy becoming interim prime minister

                    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

                    by Lepanto on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:29:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Just a coincidence (4+ / 0-)

                      Yats is the guy that got the baton.  It was a spontaneous uprising of the people's will.  We were impartially cheerleading from the sidelines, is all.

                      •  of course it's just a coincidence (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ChadmanFL, Deward Hastings, Pluto

                        we, the Good Guys, would never take it upon ourselves to meddle in another country's internal affairs so as to destabilize its government and have it replaced by one more to our liking

                        how could one even think of such a possibility?

                        We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

                        by Lepanto on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:44:43 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It is against our laws (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ChadmanFL, Deward Hastings

                          to do such a thing.  Unthinkable.  

                        •  That's pretty contemptuous of the Ukrainian... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          bluezen

                          ...people. They really don't want anything to do with Russia.   Moscow starved tens of millions of people in the Ukraine and that memory is still very raw. At least the Western part, and Russia has been meddling WAAAY more than the US or the EU has.  The protests were authentic.  The people want to be free of Russian influence and want to be part of the West.

                          "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                          by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:02:04 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  lordmike -- the commenters you've been sparring (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LordMike

                            with are immune to logic b/c they're too involved in their pro-putin circle jerk.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                            by bluezen on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:19:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't get what they see in him? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bluezen

                            Wasn't he a villain due to gay rights a few weeks ago? Now, he pulls a George Bush and he's their hero. Can someone explain?

                            "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                            by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 08:44:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  " . . . he pulls a george bush . . . " -- funny (0+ / 0-)

                            you should say that -- i watched a reporter from a russian news organization (!) being interviewed on al jazeera this morning & he said the same thing about putin acting like george bush. my jaw dropped.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                            by bluezen on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:08:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  And a "government" with plenty of fascists in it (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lepanto

                      I'd love someone to explain to me why the far-right Svoboda Party controls 4 of 20 Cabinet positions in this new government.  This is a fringe party that won barely 10% of the vote and 8% of the seats in the last parliamentary elections in Ukraine.  The party platform is downright frightening.  

                      •  Go past party and look at individuals, you can (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ChadmanFL

                        count seven Cabinet positions, plus the Chair of the Anti-Corruption Committee. I think having lots of armed men who've undergone combat training for years might have something to do with the disparity. Or maybe, given the primary role of Oligarchs in the government there's an echo of the Industrialists in 1920s Germany thinking they can keep the thugs working for them and under their thumb.


                        Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                        by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:46:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  He didn't flee until armed assaults on (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL, protectspice

                  government buildings forced him too. He had already concluded negotiations for an orderly transfer of power when the nazis led assaults. Here's some background on your new friends in Ukraine:

                  https://www.google.com/...
                  The Red & Black flag is a meant as a reference to the nazis colors, while you can recognize the party's official logo which is a variation of the swastika.

                  You can see the flags hung in Ukraine's parliament: the Confederate Stars and Bars and the Celtic Cross which are both symbols of the Pan-European/US White Supremacist Movement here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/...

                  These groups regularly meet with Italian, French, German, and Greek nazi minded sorts, and if you think the dictator Putin is a threat to our interests, you'll be shitting bricks before many years have gone by, and it won't be because of Russia.

                  We've made an historical blunder in backing these people, and time will show that.


                  Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                  by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:42:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  International Law has always been thus. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Richard Lyon

                Only obeyed when it is of little consequence.

      •  Or maybe many were just plain scared? (4+ / 0-)

        When even little old ladies are shove to the ground by Russian national chauvinists for expressing their opinion, and Russian troops just stand there and do nothing, then it is pretty obvious that there is plenty to be afraid of.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:48:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I suppose the other 5%... (0+ / 0-)

      ...will be enjoying their new homes in Siberia.

      "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

      by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:52:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why is it implausible (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim P, Lepanto, Deward Hastings, Pluto

      That Crimea, a region whose resident are around 60% self-identified as Russian would want to reunite with Russia rather than remain in what is now a right-wing government in Kiev completely dominated by East Ukraine, Pro-EU politicians?

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/...

      Look at the map.  Crimea is overwhelmingly Russia.  As for the 95% figure I'd imagine it's inflated because the minority groups, such at the Taters (little more than 10% of the population) boycotted.  Either way the referendum was going to pass by a wide margin given the large majority of Crimeans are Russian.

      •  OT: I've long wondered where Mr/Mrs Potatohead (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LordMike, Wee Mama, Elwood Dowd, ChadmanFL

        came from, and now I know.

        I don't think the Tartars participated in the election either.


        Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

        by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:10:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It is sort of sad, if true (0+ / 0-)

        if people are choosing to live under an autocrat for economic stability or tribal reasons rather than a perhaps difficult democracy.

        "So listen, oh, Don't wait." Vampire Weekend.

        by Publius2008 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:47:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The map you posted is about language, not (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tony Situ, bluezen, Hey338Too, wu ming

        ethnicity.  A clever, manipulative trick - you are not the first person to use it.

        Ethnic Russians constituted 58.3% of the Crimean population in 2001, however - if the populations trends from 1989 to 2001 continued - then they are not a majority anymore.

        Furthermore, not every ethnic Russian wants to join Putin's national chauvinist Russia.

        The govt. in Kiev is not right wing.  You are repeating Kremlin Media propaganda verbatim.  Do you watch Russia Today a lot, per chance?

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:47:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It isn't right-wing?! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Deward Hastings

          Are you serious?  Nearly every official belongs to a party ranging from center-right to far-right.  I can't find a single leftist official in the Cabinet.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          •  Nice dodge. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            whizdom, Tony Situ

            When I think of right wing govt.'s, I tend to think of governments who use national chauvinist rationalization and propaganda fear mongering as an excuse to invade other nations.

            Oh wait....

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:10:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then we have a difference of opinion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Deward Hastings

              To me a government is right-wing when it's ruled almost entirely by parties that range from self-described center-right to far-right politically.

              •  Like Russia? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tony Situ

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:31:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're talking about "liberal" vs "conservative"? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hey338Too, Lawrence

                First of all, Putin is a right winger.  He's a hardliner, a hardline nationalist that suppresses freedom of speech, press, assembly, and voting rights.  He cracks down on minorities, LGBT, etc.

                Secondly, regarding your post to which I'm responding:
                Who cares whether a government in another country is left, center-left, center-right, or right according to their political spectrum or the American political spectrum?  That has nothing to do with fascism and Nazi-ism, which is what Putin's propaganda says about the current Ukraine government, propaganda we've seen Putin apologists spread throughout this site.

        •  If ethnic trends continued, ethnic Russians ... (0+ / 0-)

          ...would still be 50% now, with Ukrainians a distant second place around 27% and Tatars 14-15%.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 06:25:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Correct, except for the part about Crimean Tatars. (0+ / 0-)

            The Tatar population rose fast because of a higher birthrate and because many are returning from the regions of the eastern Soviet Union that Stalin sent them to in his ethnic cleansing drive.

            If that rate of return continued(and there is no reason to believe that it didn't), then they are well above 20% now.

            The Tatars are even less likely to want to join Russia than ethnic Ukrainians.

            We'll never know now, though, as there likely won't be a free and fair election or another accurate census in Crimea in the future.

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 01:44:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No source I have found puts the current Crimean... (0+ / 0-)

              ...Tatar population in the Crimea above 300,000. Estimates for the Crimean Tatars throughout the old Soviet Union run from 360,000 to 410,000. All of them would have to be living on the peninsula to reach that 20% figure.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 03:23:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The rise in the percentage of Crimean Tatars (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades

                isn't just due to their repatriation, but also is due to the fact that they have a naturally growing population, as well, due to a higher birth rate.  Meanwhile, the birth rate amongst ethnic Russians has been low and their growth negative.

                If you're going by Soviet statistics, you are using statistics that are outdated by a quarter century.  The Crimean Tatar population has grown considerably since then - by at least 30%.

                According to a poll of Crimea by U.S. Aid in May of 2013, 15% of the voting age population in Crimea was Tatar at that time.  And that poll included heavily Russian Sevastopol, which wasn't included in 2001 census.

                http://www.iri.org/...

                Since Tatars often live in semi-legal to illegal rural settlements, I think it is safe to say that they were underpolled.

                It is interesting to note that only 23% of Crimean residents wanted Crimea to be a part of Russia, according to that poll.

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 04:50:47 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I think the majority of Sudetenland residents (0+ / 0-)

        Wanted to join Nazi Germany too.  At least Hitler didn't invade even before agreement was struck to give him Sudetenland.  Putin invaded first, then set up his own referendum when those in Crimea weren't calling for such.

    •  Isn't 95% about what Putin receives in his (0+ / 0-)

      "free and fair" elections?  lol

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