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View Diary: Crimea Votes For Russia: EU Immediate Sanctions Look Mild (234 comments)

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  •  Citation please? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChadmanFL
    •  Which part? (5+ / 0-)

      Here's the website for Крыминформ, direct to their unfinished "about us" page.  You can click on their (nonexistent) Twitter, or their FB/VK pages, which began on March 13.  You can also scroll through their limited news posts.  Their news headlines include gems like "Why Crimea belongs to Russia", so ... enjoy?

      As for the ballot, it had only two options: 1) unification with Russia or 2) revert to the 1992 constitution.  There's a lot of disagreement about what (2) would actually entail, but... That's it.  No option to preserve the status quo, and no option to reject the two choices.  If you're opposed, why even bother?

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:57:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My Fox news quote below contradicts you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ChadmanFL
        •  You realize I gave you a direct link to the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, whizdom, bluezen

          source, right?  You know the difference between primary and secondary sources?  

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:00:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know Fox news bias (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL

            And you are even more biased than Fox news.

            •  ??? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence, bluezen

              I linked the ballot.  You can read the ballot for yourself.  It is a fact.  What is your problem?

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:03:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In case you did not notice (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL
                The vote offered voters on the strategic Black Sea peninsula the choice of seeking annexation by Russia or remaining in Ukraine with greater autonomy.
                This is what the vote was about according to Fox.
                •  I want to preserve this thread in amber (7+ / 0-)

                  for anyone who wants to see what happens when a person ignores the plain facts and clings to an ideology.  It really can't get any simpler and more straightforward than this: a rejection of the plain text-in-itself (for being "biased"!) in favor of FOX's interpretation of the text.  Wow.  

                  Once more:

                  The second and only other option on the ballot requires a return to the 1992 constitution ("за восстановление действия Конституции Республики Крыма 1992 года"), so as I said above, there is no option on the ballot for maintaining the status quo or rejecting the two options.  There is no incentive for people happier with the current constitution or angry at the options to voice their opinion.  You're misreading "greater autonomy" as the inverse of annexation, but it's not: it's a restructuring of the current government that those opposed to annexation are also opposed to.  There are no other options on the ballot.

                  This is the actual text of the thing.  I don't know what to do if you won't accept the actual text.

                  Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                  by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:14:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  The ballot offered two choices (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deward Hastings

                Crimea become part of Russia or remains part of Ukraine but with more autonomy.  Sounds like a distinction to me.

                •  This is really, really simple: (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lawrence, Tony Situ, bluezen, wu ming

                  Let's say you belong to the 30% or so who don't want greater autonomy for Crimea (as per the February poll by KIIS).  Which option do you pick?

                  There is no option for maintaining the status quo.
                  There is no option for rejecting the two options.

                  On the ballot, you're either for greater autonomy or for annexation by Russia.  You have no other options.  So people stayed home.

                  This thread is one of the strangest I've been in since I started on this site nearly ten years ago.  I can't explain it any more clearly than I have.

                  Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                  by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:29:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What is the status quo? (0+ / 0-)
                    •  Crimea's status since 1999, (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Richard Lyon, LordMike, wu ming, Lawrence

                      codified in the amendments to the 96 constitution.  Reverting all the way back to 1992 - which would be like Texas nullifying a federal constitution - would give Crimea a different political structure both internally and in its relationship with Ukraine.

                      Why would people oppose greater autonomy?  One reason is that the government of Crimea is (was) split between locally- and federally-chosen representatives, and greater autonomy would mean just that: a fully localized government structure.  For those Crimeans who rely on the split government to prevent a fully Russianized infrastructure, this was not a particularly welcome option either.

                      And that's exactly what happened, de facto, on February 27th with the election of Aksenov as Prime Minister of Crimea, a position the current constitution does not allow Crimea itself to fill.  So in a sense the referendum is also ensuring that anyone who votes against annexation will have to vote for the legitimacy of the recent, otherwise unconstitutional government.

                      Look, I sympathize in a big way with the Russian population of Crimea, and I think Ukraine sealed its fate with the Feb 23rd vote to repeal minority language laws: a dick move by the Ukrainian government and one that brought on a well-deserved backlash.  I'd be worried about my treatment under the new government in Kiev, too.

                      But even with that in mind, this referendum is a total farce on the face of it.  You can't call something a referendum and force voters to choose from options they may not want, with no other ability to have their voices heard.  That's not a vote: that's a push-poll elevated to legal status.

                      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                      by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:06:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  A referendum nobody was demandlng, which is (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bluezen, LordMike, Hey338Too, Lawrence

                  suddenly created out of thin air by an invading military force, has no legitimacy to begin with.  What do American "progressives" not understand about that?

                  And besides, the ballot you're praising doesn't have an option for Crimea to remain as it is.  Even you admit that.  Yet here you are claiming that it's a legit ballot in a legit referendum.

              •  Obama/America Derangement Syndrome? nt (0+ / 0-)

                "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

                by Yamaneko2 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:17:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Sigh! I've had many people unable to recognize (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pico, Deward Hastings, protectspice

            primary sources and secondary sources connected with Ukraine. Give the links to the websites of the nazis in the new government, quote them verbatim, and get told you're pushing Russian propaganda. No virginia, they are nazis, with the nazi agenda: they say it themselves.

            I know the West thinks that they can keep them on a leash. But that mistake has been made before.


            Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

            by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:14:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The way people treat sources here boggles (6+ / 0-)

              my mind sometimes.  One of our Russian speakers was dismissed for not seeing through MSM propaganda, even though he was citing original in-language sources.  I understand: it's a political site so people tend toward ideological readings of everything, but old fashioned empiricism is important, and we forget that sometimes.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:33:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  No, they are not Nazis.... (0+ / 0-)

              You keep confusing nationalism with nazism.  They are NOT the same thing... sorry...

              "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

              by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:58:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There are some pretty hardcore (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL

                hypernationalists, and given that Svoboda has actual Nazi roots, it's almost a distinction without a difference.  I know the narrative now is that they've "softened", but their popularity is still pretty disconcerting, "softened" or not.

                Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                by pico on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 08:12:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hitler softened when he decided he had to get (0+ / 0-)

                  seats in the Bundestag and use that as leverage to get a cabinet position and then the Chancellorship. After he got out of jail and seized the Party. The stupid German political class (and thank heavens the West doesn't have one of those now) blundered and gave him both.

                  He had to not scare the regular guy, and get the industrialists to open up the money-flow, so he talked much less about some things and a lot more about others. And he took notes on his way about which throats to slit later on.

                  Committed nazis don't change their ideas or their hearts; they will change their presentation as it suits their advantage.


                  Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                  by Jim P on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 01:18:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Ever hear of 'distinction without meaning' (0+ / 0-)

                They base themselves on nazi ideology, they use nazi terms, they even have the Russian-Jew conspiracy going, they advocate eliminationist policies, they are racialist, they name parts of their organizations 'Joseph Goebbles' ...

                good grief, some people, they could have Godzilla walk up to them and say "i'm actually a teddy bear' and they'd point to Godzilla and say 'see, that's a teddy bear.'

                'Nationalism' is a legal tack and a propaganda device. C'mon there's a reason 'Duh!' was invented.


                Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                by Jim P on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 01:11:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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