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View Diary: Crimea Votes For Russia: EU Immediate Sanctions Look Mild (234 comments)

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  •  I doubt that it is total fiction. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fcvaguy, notrouble, ChadmanFL, Smoh

    There are a substantial number of people there who have real practical interests that tie them to Russia. Under international law this is not a legitimate way to go about it, but that doesn't mean that it is a complete farce.

    •  Real practical interest to ties with russia... (0+ / 0-)

      ....but not become Russian citizens.  Remember that Russian speaking people in Ukraine have way more rights and freedoms than their brethren in Russia, and they know that.

      "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

      by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 02:53:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Then again, armed coup d'etat is not a legitimate (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Duckmg, Lepanto, Catesby, LanceBoyle

      way to go about electoral change, but the US and West went right along with it immediately.

      It's strange, after the last dozen years or so to talk of Law, and not raw power, as if it had anything to do with international relations. Except, of course, when it is trade agreements giving privileges to multinational corporations and banks. Then the Law is scrupulously observed.


      Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

      by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:07:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What were they going to do about it? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ChadmanFL
        •  If we didn't recognize the government then (4+ / 0-)

          we couldn't send them the -- what $1.5B is it so far? -- maybe send that money to Detroit, or Cleveland, or ... how many cities do we have crumbling at the moment?

          Personally I think the notion that backing a regime which got in on the backs of assaults carried out by virolent nazis who've been in intense training for war for years is not a good move on our part. But around DKos, it looks like that's just me.


          Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

          by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:23:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nationalists does not equal Nazi.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tony Situ, bluezen

            It's high time that that Russian-promoted fallacy comes to an end.

            Are there "nazis" in europe?  You bet?  About 10% and growing. Are pro-independent Ukranians Nazis?  No.  In fact, Russia has objectively brutalized minorities in their country.  Ukraine... perhaps there have been isolated incidents here and there, but certainly Jewish and even Russian leaders in the region have spoke publicly in support of their safety under the current government.

            "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

            by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:51:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh fuck just educate yourself, will you please? (5+ / 0-)

              Read their own damned words from their own damned websites, can you do that and THEN have an opinon? Embedded in this link: http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Read the whole thread btw as the exclusion of the 2nd largest Party in the new government is detailed by others, as well as the opposition to women's rights. Poke around THEIR OWN websites and you can find what they really think about 'democracy.' Look around a bit more, or maybe it was Right Sektor which wrote about 'eliminate the intellectuals' of the 'Black Ukrainians' which means Jews, Slavs, and Poles.

              (Tip: drop the 'en' in the comments embedded URL and then run the URL through Google's URL translate. Otherwise the embedded links won't work I recently discovered)

              Everyone keeps talking about Russian propaganda. What? Putin came in and wrote the nazi's website's words?

              But thank heavens the US population is never subjected to US propaganda, eh?

              As to speaking about their safety with nazis in control of police and security and military and justice you might get some understanding and perspective from reading words of top Rabbis in Germany after January 1932. I assure you they didn't say "these nazi motherfuckers have got to go." I'm just as certain that's what they felt.

              Or go ask Jews who aren't in the Ukraine what they think. Like the World Jewish Congress who asked that Svoboda and other 'neo-nazi' parties be banned in Europe back in 2012.

              Face it. We're backing a nazi-heavy government. And this close to absolute power: you really think they're going to melt away and not try to get it all?

               


              Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

              by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:35:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  jimp -- maybe you should take some of your own (0+ / 0-)

                advice, when it comes to educating oneself about who's a nazi:

                http://www.dailystormer.com/...

                The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                by bluezen on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:12:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If someone states their ideology is based (0+ / 0-)

                  on a Ukrainian who was an anti-Semite who worked with Nazi Germany and wrote they were right to kill all the Jews rather than assimilate them;
                  they have a racialist view of the world;
                  they show up at Nazi War Criminal trials in support of the accused;
                  they put forward theories of Russian-Jewish conspiracies against their nation;
                  they use white supremacist symbols and flags (including the swastika);
                  they advocate ethnic purity and cleansing;
                  they name parts of their internal organization after Joseph Goebbels;
                  and if in their own statements they talk about 'eliminating the intellectuals' of their enemies...

                  well, damn, they can call themselves Daisies; call themselves, or you can call them, Alfalfa Venus Under Fried Tuesday because words just aren't connected to reality in any way.  

                  Nazis near control of a European State is what we've got going there.

                  As to your link: Look at the nazis in the 1920s through the Night of the Long Knives. They varied in emphasis and direction, even to the point of death. So your point is?

                  As I've commented in several places, the white supremacist movement of all the European nations, plus the English-speaking world, are in communication and they desire greater coordination.

                  You're citing a Greek nazi statement which just happens to cover the ass of the Ukrainian nazis, who right now are trying to get alliances with the West who are astonishingly quite on the topic.

                  And regardless, even if the Greek nazis said 'the Ukrainian nazis not nazis but Jews and Texans,' the people who align themselves, harmonize themselves. with nazism are the Ukrainians in question. (And there's the reason "Duh!" was invented.)

                  Ukrainian opinion trumps Greek opinion about Ukrainian self-identification. Which, based on their own words, is with -- well, why would that be a question?


                  Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                  by Jim P on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 12:44:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  don't try to palm off your abuses of logic on ME. (0+ / 0-)

                    you're the one who's using the rw elements in the ukraine to excuse that megalomaniac autocrat in moscow's actions.

                    if you don't care for rw/fascist/neo-nazi's you should have issues with putin. it's pretty obvious that you do not.

                    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                    by bluezen on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:05:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Why rush to embrace a provisional government (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL

            without a mandate and consisting of an uneasy mix of Social Democrats and extreme right-wing nationalists? We don't yet know who Ukrainians are going to elect to lead them in May, we don't yet know if they're going to renege on their debts, we don't yet know if the IMF is going to put them on a Greek-Style austerity regime, we don't yet know if they're going to recklessly escalate the conflict with Russia.

      •  The "coup" as you called it... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bluezen

        ...which isn't really a coup since the president was legally impeached, but even if you call it a coup was an accident.  People got carried away after being... you know... shot in the streets for demonstrating against... well, being shot in the street.  The president of Ukraine was not a paragon of virtue by any means.  He was universally hated for his crimes.  It would have been better that the overthrow had not succeeded, but these things can spiral out of control.

        "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

        by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:19:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was a coup (5+ / 0-)

          we can debate about the degree of our involvement, but it was a coup.  an unconstitutional transfer of power.  Perhaps a morally unobjectionable one, but it was a coup.

          •  and moreover, a coup that installed an interim (4+ / 0-)

            government that we recognized as legitimate with unbelievably indecent haste

            with such haste that one will always be puzzled as to what was really going on behind the scenes

            not to mention the fortuitous coincidence of Vicky's boy becoming interim prime minister

            We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

            by Lepanto on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:29:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just a coincidence (4+ / 0-)

              Yats is the guy that got the baton.  It was a spontaneous uprising of the people's will.  We were impartially cheerleading from the sidelines, is all.

              •  of course it's just a coincidence (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, Deward Hastings, Pluto

                we, the Good Guys, would never take it upon ourselves to meddle in another country's internal affairs so as to destabilize its government and have it replaced by one more to our liking

                how could one even think of such a possibility?

                We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

                by Lepanto on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:44:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is against our laws (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL, Deward Hastings

                  to do such a thing.  Unthinkable.  

                •  That's pretty contemptuous of the Ukrainian... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bluezen

                  ...people. They really don't want anything to do with Russia.   Moscow starved tens of millions of people in the Ukraine and that memory is still very raw. At least the Western part, and Russia has been meddling WAAAY more than the US or the EU has.  The protests were authentic.  The people want to be free of Russian influence and want to be part of the West.

                  "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                  by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 04:02:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  lordmike -- the commenters you've been sparring (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LordMike

                    with are immune to logic b/c they're too involved in their pro-putin circle jerk.

                    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                    by bluezen on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:19:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't get what they see in him? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      bluezen

                      Wasn't he a villain due to gay rights a few weeks ago? Now, he pulls a George Bush and he's their hero. Can someone explain?

                      "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

                      by LordMike on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 08:44:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  " . . . he pulls a george bush . . . " -- funny (0+ / 0-)

                        you should say that -- i watched a reporter from a russian news organization (!) being interviewed on al jazeera this morning & he said the same thing about putin acting like george bush. my jaw dropped.

                        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. ~ J.K. Galbraith

                        by bluezen on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:08:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  And a "government" with plenty of fascists in it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lepanto

              I'd love someone to explain to me why the far-right Svoboda Party controls 4 of 20 Cabinet positions in this new government.  This is a fringe party that won barely 10% of the vote and 8% of the seats in the last parliamentary elections in Ukraine.  The party platform is downright frightening.  

              •  Go past party and look at individuals, you can (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL

                count seven Cabinet positions, plus the Chair of the Anti-Corruption Committee. I think having lots of armed men who've undergone combat training for years might have something to do with the disparity. Or maybe, given the primary role of Oligarchs in the government there's an echo of the Industrialists in 1920s Germany thinking they can keep the thugs working for them and under their thumb.


                Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:46:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  He didn't flee until armed assaults on (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChadmanFL, protectspice

          government buildings forced him too. He had already concluded negotiations for an orderly transfer of power when the nazis led assaults. Here's some background on your new friends in Ukraine:

          https://www.google.com/...
          The Red & Black flag is a meant as a reference to the nazis colors, while you can recognize the party's official logo which is a variation of the swastika.

          You can see the flags hung in Ukraine's parliament: the Confederate Stars and Bars and the Celtic Cross which are both symbols of the Pan-European/US White Supremacist Movement here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/...

          These groups regularly meet with Italian, French, German, and Greek nazi minded sorts, and if you think the dictator Putin is a threat to our interests, you'll be shitting bricks before many years have gone by, and it won't be because of Russia.

          We've made an historical blunder in backing these people, and time will show that.


          Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

          by Jim P on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 03:42:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  International Law has always been thus. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Richard Lyon

        Only obeyed when it is of little consequence.

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