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View Diary: German Neo-Nazis Forge Ties With Ukrainian Svoboda (146 comments)

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  •  Eh... (0+ / 0-)

    There was never any evidence in the first place of sniper fire from pro-Maidan forces.  The only alleged source has said she was completely misquoted.  You can't hold an investigation to a tangible proof standard if there's no evidence that the alleged event happened: that's asking them to prove a negative.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:10:40 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  A sniper shot the police (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      limpidglass

      So unless the government was firing at themselves then it almost certainly was pro-maidan protesters.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:25:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's the source for this? (0+ / 0-)

        I'm under the impression that the only doctor who allegedly looked at the police said she was misquoted and could not possibly have done that kind of ballistic analysis even if she wanted to.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:36:26 PM PDT

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        •  Well, someone shot the police (0+ / 0-)

          There were dead police officers. It might have been someone other than a sniper, and the tape in question had originally been taken to imply that the same group of people had shot both protesters and police, but later was taken back. But I didn't realize there was any doubt that police had been shot.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:38:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Police were shot: I'm not arguing that. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            There was a gunfight.  Certainly.

            The investigation that took place recently was whether there were pro-Maidan forces sniping against both sides to be provocateurs in the riots.  There was never any evidence for that sort of thing, and so the investigation went nowhere.  That's the investigation FarEasterner is claiming didn't produce "tangible evidence".  Of course it didn't.  How could it?

            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

            by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:44:54 PM PDT

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            •  So there's no evidence that either side killed (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pico, Spit

              the other with Sniper fire?

              From what I can tell the police were mostly killed on February 18th and the 20th was when many protesters were killed by sniper fire. That sounds far more like a response to protesters shooting at the police than it sounds like the police just decided to start killing people. If there were eight police officers killed at a protest in the US people would be braying for blood.

              I suppose it's possible that there were snipers killing people on both sides, but I'm not sure what the point would be. Wouldn't pro-maidan snipers not kill police officers so as to make it look like a massacre instead of a gun fight?

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:50:12 PM PDT

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              •  Maybe - that I don't know. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, Spit

                And maybe there should have been a fuller investigation if only because of the problems of fog-of-war.

                This is a complicated area of the world: after all, this is a country where a presidential candidate was nearly assassinated-by-poisoning just a decade ago.  I wouldn't put underhanded tactics beyond anyone.  

                But it was the police who, without provocation and with apparent orders from above, raided the Maidan camps in the middle of the night at the end of November, setting off the national riots.  I have no idea on the sniper fire.  You're right that it sounds ridiculous, though I'd say it sounds ridiculous either way, even as provocation.  

                Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:59:45 PM PDT

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                •  Raiding camps in the middle of the night (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pico, Spit

                  in November. Brings back memories. Which really just makes me think that my statements about this happening in the US are even more true.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 01:06:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Terrifying (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT
      You can't hold an investigation to a tangible proof standard if there's no evidence that the alleged event happened
      You claim 88 people didn't die on Maidan from sniper fire? I thought such crime should be investigated by international and independent commission as first priority.

      Of course opposition and Western media and governments quickly blamed Yanukovich for horrendous crime but without proof as usual. Now Ukraine government blames Russia for snipers which helped them to capture power.

      There is some footage of snipers in work, room where they have been was recognized as Hotel Ukraine (where Right Sector militants were treated), pro-Yanukovich figures like Yakemenko, chief of SBU (Ukrainian security service) made strong case that it was work of Right Sector.

      Even if Yanukovich is to be blamed for snipers the case should thoroughly investigated by United Nations like it was with Rafik Hariri murder in car bomb.

      •  Stop watching RT, for one. (0+ / 0-)
        You claim 88 people didn't die on Maidan from sniper fire?
        88 people died from gunfights.  That's not the same as 88 from sniper fire.  

        As far as I know there were only two sources claiming that police were hit by pro-Maidan snipers: one was Olga Bogomolets (via the famous Estonian phone call), who says she was totally misunderstood and had no knowledge of police being hit by snipers; the other is Aleksandr Yakimenko, who wasn't there.

        If there's another source that actually had evidence of any sort, I'll happily look at it.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:42:39 PM PDT

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        •  Well (0+ / 0-)

          if national TV chief executive is beaten in his office by fascist thugs and if Yanukovich MPs claims of being beaten in parliament toilet to force their votes and voting cards stolen by pro-Maidan MPs are true it speaks volume about level of security in Kyiv.

          Not big wonder Bogomolets is frightened.

          Police was unarmed and received guns only in last day of Yanukovich when he signed off treaty with opposition and European FMs.

          But what about UN and Western governments and pliant media? Why they are not demanding investigation? Why it's only Russia which asks full and thorough investigation of Kyiv murders by snipers or in gunfights?

          By the way no country in the world let protesters to shoot police. It's a grave crime.

    •  two points: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FarEasterner

      First, the woman, "Olga," was publicly named. With Svoboda and Right Sector in charge of the army and cops, does anyone really believe she would publicly state that the opposition had sniped at the police? Again, if she wants to stay safe and keep working in Ukraine, she's not going to say shit.

      Second, has there been an EU investigation into these charges? Surely it's worth finding other witnesses to either corroborate or refute her claims. Have they even tried to inquire into this?

      Saying "but she publicly recanted her statement to a paper" doesn't eliminate the need for a full investigation.

      "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

      by limpidglass on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:41:31 PM PDT

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      •  This is just not true, though. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Spit

        Bogomolets has never backed down from threats: in fact the reason she saw wounded police officers in the first place is that she traveled on both sides of the Maidan protests - through violence - to treat victims.  And she hasn't wavered from her version of events: it's only the telephone version that's different, so it's far, far more likely they misunderstood her comments.

        I don't understand why the conspiracy theory version of this is so powerful.  Bogomolets has been a tremendously brave (to the point of recklessness) woman during all of this.  She doesn't give two shits about her own safety.  There's no evidence she felt cowed by any outside pressure, much less cowed to the point that she's been a vocal Maidan protesters both before and after.

        I'm sympathetic to the need for a fuller investigation - I really am! - but it has to be based on something more than what's been offered.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 12:54:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Having dug into Olga Bogomolets some, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        I have to tell you that I find it very hard to believe that she would be cowed into submission by the presence of some hard-right activists in the new government.

        The possibility of such sniper fire is concerning, and it's a very serious charge. But the only evidence for it having happened at all as presented, really, is one second or third hand quote that may well have simply been mangled, since she doesn't stand by how it was presented.

        And I've a feeling that this woman has faced down plenty more frightening things than the current interim government.

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