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View Diary: Bible: Life Begins at Breath, Not Conception (254 comments)

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  •  You're correct, because the bible isn't originally (11+ / 0-)

    in latin, and anyway, fetus means offspring. So that's just semantics.

    And I don't think it's a literal breath of fresh air, as I say in my post:

    On a final note, I know this community well enough to know that someone must be asking "So do you really believe that it's acceptable for the intentional or accidental death of a fetus to be considered property damage and a fine paid to the FATHER?"

    No, I absolutely do not think that's acceptable. I find the idea that a woman could have been made to drink poison because her husband was jealous absolutely repulsive. Nor do I think we should try to impose rules for a 5000 year old theocracy on modern man. The only reason to study this scripture is to understand the context of the ancient Jewish people whose religion inspired and laid the foundation for ours. Further than that, I am of the opinion that Christians should be in communication with Rabbinical Judaism, because there are centuries of writings kept by that community that could enrich our understanding of ancient scripture.

    That being said: I do not believe that scripture is holy. I don't believe that it is perfect. I do not believe that it is free from errors. I believe, in the words of the founder of my particular sect of Christianity, John Wesley, that scripture is "Sufficient."

    The bible is sufficient.

    So the question is, why are you accusing me of literalism?

    Didn't I lay out pretty clearly that I don't believe this, I'm just making a theological point to give pro-choice folks liturgical ammo?

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 02:19:24 PM PDT

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    •  because you (0+ / 0-)

      are treating the breath as one of air. That is a literal breath.

      Which is odd as none of the verses you reference mention air. Though the first one mentions "breath of life" instead.

      As no air is mentioned, this breath could be administered before birth. Perhaps, even at conception.

      •  Are you serious or are you playing the devil's (13+ / 0-)

        advocate here?

        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

        by OllieGarkey on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 02:47:42 PM PDT

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        •  As I understand it, modern rabbis (basing their (10+ / 0-)

          opinion on traditional teaching) hold that the soul enters the body when the child takes its first breath after birth.

          THis gives helpful clarity in cases of medical trouble where doctors have to decide how hard to try to save the baby if that may increase danger to the mother.  The Jewish assumption is that you prioritize the life of the mother, the fully formed, fully alive person in the situation.

          BUt then again, some Jews believe humans have more than one soul, so there may be a continuum of how alive, how much a person, a fetus is.  Which makes sense to me.

          There's a continuum, so any one point designated as when human life begins will be subject to disagreement.

          I consider human life to begin with human consciousness, and so the term "unborn child," which is ludicrous applied to a zygote, makes intuitive sense when applied to a fetus in the 8th or 9th month.  It's quite far along the continuum, and will be born already having come to recognize its mother's voice -- that is, already having been conscious of that voice.

          But I appreciate this diary as a valuable challenge to fundamentalist thinking.  It's important to expose fundamentalists, over and over, as people who are not consistent even within their wonky framework.  They are consistent only in evincing fear-based, rigid, and judgmental attitudes.

          --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

          by Fiona West on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 04:25:47 PM PDT

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        •  Funny, I thought as humans we breathe air. (8+ / 0-)

          Not say fluid or blood.
          WOW. Way to make the diarist's point.
          Thanks!

          “When you victim-blame, be aware that in all likelihood, at least one woman you know and love silently decides she cannot trust you.” ` Steph Guthrie

          by Penny GC on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 04:31:45 PM PDT

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        •  Significant or intentional (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo

          reading comprehension issue, possibly associated with joining DKos 3/4.  (This is the 3rd example I've run across in ~ 2 days)

          "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

          by Ginny in CO on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 05:13:53 PM PDT

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          •  Yep. A pattern has already emerged. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ginny in CO

            "But I do apologize, JVolvo, for you are arbiter of all that can and cannot be discussed and I bow down to your supremacy when it comes to what can be written on this website." WinSmith 1/22/2014 - "OK" JVolvo 1/23/2014 (sorry, Clive)

            by JVolvo on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 08:19:33 PM PDT

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        •  FYI in his/her very short time here hodor2 has (0+ / 0-)

          taken contrarian positions and expressed libertarian views.  ymmv

          "But I do apologize, JVolvo, for you are arbiter of all that can and cannot be discussed and I bow down to your supremacy when it comes to what can be written on this website." WinSmith 1/22/2014 - "OK" JVolvo 1/23/2014 (sorry, Clive)

          by JVolvo on Wed Mar 19, 2014 at 08:17:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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