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View Diary: President Obama hits Russia with more sanctions over Crimea (218 comments)

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  •  So where do you think he's going to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TofG, Judgment at Nuremberg

    go next?

    Or do you just have a general unease without any specifics?

    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

    by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:20:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  He needs a land connection to Crimea. So it's (8+ / 0-)

      almost certain he will seize much of eastern Ukraine, on the pretext of protecting Russians.

      When we got the very first reports of Russian troops with no insignias operating in Crimea, I said Putin was going to annex Crimea, and that was mocked.  Now I just can't believe that Putin is done.

      Hillary Clinton was exactly correct to compare Putin to Hitler for making a big land grab, right after his own Olympics, on the pretext of protecting his own people.

      •  Right, he's going to seize the rest of Ukraine (3+ / 0-)

        right after he said he wouldn't. Even though he has made no moves to do so, and the East of Ukraine is not majority Russian now that Crimea is gone. There is a possibility he will invade more of Ukraine, but it's tiny. Unless our fascist friends in Svoboda and Right Sektor start going after Russians in the rest of Ukraine. Or attacking Russian troops, god forbid. But minus some provocation Putin isn't gonig to do anything, he got what he wanted and he's smart enough to know when he's won. There's no need for a land route to Crimea, Russia still has significant control over Ukraine through gas deliveries, and that's not going to change any time soon.

        These fear mongering comparisons to Hitler are absurd. I guess  Reagan was like Hitler too because he invaded Grenada to protect Americans, and Bush the Elder for attacking Panama! He said 'Ethic' so he's Hitler!

        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

        by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:42:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, he said so, did he? That's nice. (9+ / 0-)

          And to think, I was worried.

          Hey, if you can't take Vladimir Putin at his word...

          BTW, I could drive a T-34 through the hole you just inserted into your argument: Unless our fascist friends in Svoboda and Right Sektor start going after Russians in the rest of Ukraine. Or attacking Russian troops, god forbid.

          Ever read about what preceded the German advance into Poland?

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:01:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Putin could totally pull a Gulf of Tonkin. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, IM, Judgment at Nuremberg

            Or maybe he could claim that Ukraine is hiding weapons of mass destruction and refusing to disarm. He could claim that they are seeking yellowcake from Niger. There's lots of good reasons to wage war. If Putin wants to do so, I'm sure he could come up with an excuse.

            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

            by HairyTrueMan on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:13:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You remind me of an old joke from the Cold War: (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TofG, Bonsai66, Timaeus, IM, eglantine

              An American goes on a trip to Moscow. The Soviets send a tour guide/handler to keep an eye on him and take him to some Potemkin sites. The first place they go is the new train station. The guide starts pointing out things - the open design, the natural lighting, the marble stair cases, the innovative design and construction techniques - he really gives an architectural seminar.

              After a while, the American says, "You know, this station is really very impressive, but I just realized, we've been here and hour and I haven't seen a single train come by."

              The Russian is silent for a moment, and then says "But what about the Negroes in the South?"

              You'd make a good tour guide.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:24:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  DON'T YOU TALK BAD ABOUT AMERICA!!!!! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice

                We came to protect freedom and blow shit up, and we're just about out of freedom.

                AND HITLER!

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:46:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  DON'T YOU HIJACK THREADS WITH IRRELEVANCIES! (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bonsai66, IM, eglantine, Timaeus

                  By all means, if we're talking about something where a reference to WMDs would be relevant, throw it out there.

                  But completely changing the subject just because you can't stand it when an American dares to be against something done by another country is just trolling, and deserves to be mocked.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  WMDs aren't the issue, sport. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice, Claudius Bombarnac

                    The issue is lying about the reasons for war. Or worse, creating a justification to go to war. The United States is really good at that... historically speaking. I think it's relevant when you're pre-accusing Putin of attacking Russians in the Ukraine to justify an invasion.

                    And anyway, you're the one who brought up 1939 Poland.

                    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                    by HairyTrueMan on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 11:52:05 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, if the fascist groups we support (2+ / 0-)

            start attacking Russians then things will change. If the Estonia attacks Russia then Russia will probably attack Estonia also. Ditto with China.

            Ever read about what preceded the German advance into Poland?
            A deal between Russia and Germany to split Poland. Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy between Europe and Russia to split Ukraine that Russia is going to renege on and take all of Ukraine? Because that's the historical precedent you're citing.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:24:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL, is this parody? (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut, Bonsai66, IM, eglantine, Timaeus

              The history you don't seem to know about involves the Germans creating a story about German Poles being persecuted by the Polish government, and then the Polish military attacking German forces, as a pretext for their invasion.

              And here you are, making up stories about Russians being persecuted in Crimea, and Estonia (lol) attacking Russia.

              I suppose it's a good thing that propagandists like yourself are so uniformly incompetent and ham-fisted.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:27:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The history is that Russia and Germany (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Claudius Bombarnac

                conspired to split Poland. Sure, there was more to it. There have been thousands of deceptions of war in history. Many American wars started that way.

                If you think Russia is going to try an invade a NATO country you're an idiot.

                It's possible they could invade more of Ukraine, but unlikely. The current situation is entirely different than that in Crimea and they would get no support from any other countries in that case, unlike the tacit support the received for the annexing of Crimea.

                There is no longer a revolution ongoing in Ukraine and as such they would in fact have a mass casualty situation on their hands if they invaded the rest of Ukraine. It would be foolish and accomplish none of Russia's goals. This was about securing the naval base in Crimea, period. They don't care about the rest of Ukraine.

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:36:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Being called an idiot by you is an honor. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bonsai66, Timaeus, sweatyb, eglantine

                  I haven't the foggiest idea what ever happened to give you such a lofty opinion of your understanding of history and politics.

                  You've completely littered the thread with derp.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:53:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Claiming that Russia is going to attack NATO (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Claudius Bombarnac

                    is idiotic. Full stop.

                    The only reason you and others think it isn't is because you've bought into the "Putin is crazy and Hitler" nonsense.

                    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                    by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 11:00:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He never made that claim. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      joe from Lowell
                      •  Well then I didn't call him an idiot (0+ / 0-)
                        If you think Russia is going to try an invade a NATO country you're an idiot.
                        Note the 'if' at the beginning. That indicates an if then statement, although I left out the 'then' so maybe that's what confused people. He responded to my comment of that by saying he was happy to have me call him an idiot. So he implied that he did in fact think that.

                        I never said he made that claim, but I have seen it here again and again and he sure as hell implies that my saying that claim is idiotic means I have no knowledge of history or politics.

                        What he, and you, are doing is reading things into what I'm saying that aren't there. You do so when you claim I'm issuing apologia for Russia, and you do so when you claim that I said he made such a statement.

                        I stand by this statement: If you think Russia is going to try an invade a NATO country you're an idiot.

                        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                        by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:04:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  He seems to be referring to the Gleiwitz incident. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              joe from lowell is preemptively suggesting that any attack on Ukrainian Russians would be a scam by Putin, not to be believed by any rational person.

              If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

              by HairyTrueMan on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:31:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Yes what preceded the German advance (0+ / 0-)

            was the western Ukrainian right wing political movements (that Right Sector and Svoboda glorify to this day) and paramilitary engaging in helping their fascist friends in Germany....

            And this included brutal ethnic cleansing of Poles, mixed-Polish-Ukrainian families, and Jews....

             

      •  No problem. Just build a bridge or tunnel (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT
        Russia green lights road and rail bridge to Crimea

        The long delayed Kerch Strait Bridge project, which would connect the Crimean peninsula and mainland Russia, has been given a green light, with President Putin saying the bridge would provide both road and rail links.

        Vladimir Putin held a meeting with members of the government on Wednesday in order to discuss transport links with the Crimea, a day after the treaty of accession of the republic to the Russian Federation was signed.

        “We need both automobile and railway bridges,” the President said about the Kerch Strait Bridge.
        Putin’s proposal received the full backing from Russian Transport Minister Maksim Sokolov, who stressed that the government has already agreed on the feasibility study for the project.

        The survey will take place this year, with several proposals for the bridge ready by the end of 2014, he added.

        If the South Stream pipeline can go overland in Crimea, Gazprom can save 2-3 billion dollars of underwater pipeline. This would more than cover the cost of the $1.4 billion bridge. BTW, Gazprom has it's own development bank so financing is no object.

        Crimea will also get it's own supply of (cheap) gas via pipeline under the Kerch Straight. Russian consumers enjoy subsidized natural gas at $75 tcm while Europe/Ukraine have to pay $350 tcm and up. Combining these savings with gas/oil backed Russian public pensions this will be a welcome boost to the living standards of Crimeans.

        Another proposal is to supply clean water from the huge aquifer on the Russian side of the straight. The water from Ukraine is highly polluted which is expensive to clean.

        Putin has also announced that Ukrainian troops will get triple their pay plus nicely funded pensions with reduced years service if they join the Russian army. It's a deal that is hard to resist. Ukraine has a very poorly paid military. Their officers make what a sales clerk makes.

          •  You don't understad that some of us (2+ / 0-)

            are looking at this in regards to the practical aspects of how Putin ad others will react. The comment you're responding to is not a "Yeah Russia!" comment in any sense, it's a practical look at what's going on and what Russia is likely to do.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:06:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I am not a fan of Putin. All I want to see here in (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            DKos is some truth, realty and balance instead of the good/evil dichotomy you keep trying to portray. I find I have to interject on the side of Russia to give some balance to the debate.

            He needs a land connection to Crimea. So it's (8+ / 0-)
            almost certain he will seize much of eastern Ukraine, on the pretext of protecting Russians.
            You are prognosticating on the motives of Putin without having any information of the reality of what is occurring on the ground.

            I can back up every statement I made above with links to the appropriate sources and show quite clearly Crimea does not need the Ukraine at all. Not for gas, not for water, not for access.

            Putin is now free to put the $12 billion and 33% gas discount saved from his December offer to the Ukraine into Crimea. There will be no austerity for Crimeans. They will enjoy cheap Russian gas and bigger pensions plus a lot of new government jobs.

            The Ukrainians will be hit by the IMF reform to remove 70% gas subsidies (costing Ukraine $1 billion/month), accept lower government pensions (already ridiculously low) and large layoffs of government workers (who have sometimes gone weeks without paychecks).

            Just recently there was a spate of posts in DKos saying there was proven fraud in the Crimean referendum because the numbers of the voters didn't jibe with the actual population figures.

            Here's the truth:

            Updated: Russian media distorted the turnout of the residents in Sevastopol

            >Mikhail Malyshev [supposedly] said the following:

            “1 250 426 people have voted in Crimea by 20.00. This is the data not counting Sevastopol. 1 724 563 people voted including Sevastopol”.

            By the 1st November 2013 the population of Sevastopol was 385 462 people. This is including under aged who do not have a right to vote.

            474 137 — 385 462 = 88675 suddenly appeared during the referendum in Sevastopol.

            However, in reality gazeta.ru and other media were mistaken. Malyshev did not say 1.7 million participants. He said 1 524 563 people including Sevastopol. The following video shows this moment.

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