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  •  Putin is the one ratcheting up the stakes. (11+ / 0-)

    He threatened Estonia just yesterday.  If anything, US observers and politicians are underplaying Putin at the moment hoping that the guy "comes to his senses".  All indications are that the guy is in rampage mode, though.  Who knows what to expect.  I'd prepare for the worst, considering Putin's history, especially recent history.

    "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

    by LordMike on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:23:52 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  He didn't threaten Estonia (9+ / 0-)

      This is exactly the damn problem. There were no war drums. A Russian diplomat was at the UN testifying to the human rights committee about an ongoing problem in Estonia, one that has left around 8% of people in Estonia stateless. The idea that Russia was threatening Estonia is fear mongering. That's exactly the sort of thing that leads us to war.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:33:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So let me get this straight: (13+ / 0-)

        You've spent the past couple of weeks denouncing American commentary about events in Ukraine as war-mongering, but when the government that just invaded somebody using the excuse that they were protecting Russian minorities starts talking about the Russian minorities in yet another country needing protection, it's just commentary on a human rights issue?

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:56:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let me get this straight (6+ / 0-)

          You think that Russia is threatening to invade a NATO country?

          And yes, when some unnamed diplomat who is testifying in front of the UN Human Rights Committee reiterates something that Russia has been talking about for a long time, as well as Amnesty International BTW, then I don't see it as any sort of threat.

          Was an American diplomat talking about N. Korea's WMD at the UN in 2003 a threat to invade N. Korea?

          People are completely blowing this out of proportion.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:04:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't want to answer the question? (8+ / 0-)

            Yup, I think Russia just issued a veiled threat against Estonia. Whether they act on it is another question, but the threat is every bit as clear as those being uttered by the likes of John McCain - and several times clearer than any of what you've denounced as "war-mongering" by Obama and Kerry.

            And yes, when some unnamed diplomat who is testifying in front of the UN Human Rights Committee reiterates something that Russia has been talking about for a long time, as well as Amnesty International BTW, then I don't see it as any sort of threat.
            Um, a little history might be in order here. The 'protection of Russian minorities' in non-Russian countries that used to be part of the Russian empire - you know, like in Crimea - is, indeed something that Russia has been talking about for a long time. Decades. Centuries.

            And we just saw how that worked out in Crimea, didn't we?

            Was an American diplomat talking about N. Korea's WMD at the UN in 2003 a threat to invade N. Korea?
            Yes. As, well, some of us now know, the Bush administration intended to expand its "Axis of Evil" wars beyond Iraq.

            Anyway, you really don't get to talk about other people blowing things out of proportion after your howls about the administration's response over the past couple of weeks.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:16:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So Bush intended to invade N. Korea? (3+ / 0-)

              Seriously? Why didn't he do it then?

              Crimea was a land grab because they wanted to secure the military base there, nothing more. There is no reason to go after Estonia, and all these intimations that Russia is going to attack NATO, which is what you're implying, are idiotic.

              but the threat is every bit as clear as those being uttered by the likes of John McCain
              No, it isn't, not by a long stretch. If you think that testifying in front of the UN is the same as singing "Bomb, bomb, Iran" then I don't know what to tell you.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:30:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can't believe you're only hearing about this now (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bonsai66, IM, eglantine, duhban, Timaeus

                Bush's global regime change campaign ground to a halt because things went so badly in Iraq.

                For real, you've never come across this before? That Syria, Iran, and North Korea were going to be next, in that order?

                So anyway, I think you need to get your story straight. A little while ago, you were talking about Russian aggression being about protecting those poor, beleaguered Russian minorities. Now it's about bases.

                You know what I think? I think you're tap-dancing, improvising, making up positions and discarding them based on what seems momentarily convenient.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:49:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We were never going to invade N. Korea (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DeadHead

                  Bush stuck it in the Axis of Evil because he needed another country to bring the number to 3 for that WWII symmetry. In fact, he never talked about invading, nor did anyone in the US. I was there for all of this.

                  A little while ago, you were talking about Russian aggression being about protecting those poor, beleaguered Russian minorities.
                  Now you're making shit up. The ethnic Russian thing has always been a cover and I've never claimed otherwise. What I have claimed is that it is an effective cover and one that won't work in either east Ukraine or Estonia. I think you are confusing what I'm saying if you think I'm claiming Russia has a right to annex Crimea. Given that I say Russia has no right to annex Crimea over and over again I don't see how you can be confused on this point.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:56:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Now don't be contradicting joe from lowell -- (0+ / 0-)

                    he apparently does his typing from somewhere inside the White House, and thus knows all there is to know about what's in Obama's head, and all about how successful our President has been executing a long game that is still playing out (and I can sort of agree with the frame there, though how many folks here like what that means for us?) and all about every bit of history and politics. And of course he has mastered the game of the Authoritative Unsupported Assertion, the Partially True But Too Much Trouble To Refute Assertion, all that stuff, and how to walk silently away when somebody makes a liar out of him, to return another day to work his subtle, not to say sneaky, argumentative magic, part of an apparent and very durable intent and charge to move the discourse back into the narrow trench of the Preferred Narrative. Several diarists have posted schematics on how to divert or pervert a chain of discourse in blogspace, and joe knows all the tricks and a few more.

                    Hi joe, how the heck are you? Lost interest in the other blogplace where you used to appear? Or has that one become sufficiently unimportant to move your efforts elsewhere?

                    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

                    by jm214 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 12:17:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Meta: this is a rare example of a comment (0+ / 0-)

                  that I recommended after three reads.

                  •  Bush never called for an invasion (0+ / 0-)

                    of North Korea.

                    Not once.

                    And the comment you recommended made up a claim about me saying something I never once said.

                    If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                    by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:22:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As usual, evading the main points. (0+ / 0-)
                      •  Not at all (0+ / 0-)

                        The two main points he made were that Bush was going to invade North Korea and that I was "talking about Russian aggression being about protecting those poor, beleaguered Russian minorities." Both of those points are factually wrong. He straight up lied about what I said. You are simply calling me a liar.

                        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                        by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:27:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  And what question? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DeadHead

              I answered the question you asked, right there in my second paragraph. Did I miss something?

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:31:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I am sorry, but you are waaay of base here (6+ / 0-)

              The way that Russian-speaking minorities were treated by Baltic nations was shameful and unbecoming of democratic nations.

              They were disenfranchised and in certain cases stripped of property rights and other civil rights.  And those were the people who lived there for generations.  Ordinary people, workers, engineers, teachers were declared Occupiers overnight.

              All Russian presidents (Yeltsin, Putin, Medvedev) and other officials raised this issue again and again in any world forum that would listen.  And they were repeatedly laughed off.

              Even though such treatment of minorities is clearly in violation if not letter, but definitely spirit of European democratic laws, those countries were admitted to EU and NATO without a hitch.

              Routine raising of this issue by mid-level diplomat in routine UN hearing is as much threatening of Estonia as deportation of Justin Bieber would be a declaration of war on Canada.

              •  Deportation of Justin Bieber? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, Timaeus

                Can we do that? Even if it means declaring war on Canada, we should do that.

                Getting rid of Justin Bieber is definitively worth risking war with Canada.

                I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

                by Farugia on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 05:10:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm reccing that, with laughter, even though (0+ / 0-)

                  you obviously don't understand the law in this area.

                  Bieber is a Canadian citizen.  He is not a U.S. citizen.  So he has no right to reside permanently, nor to work, within the United States, unless otherwise granted such rights.

                  He is said to be in O-1 nonimmigrant (temporary) status based on supposed "extraordinary" ability as an artist.

                  That status can be revoked at any time for criminal violations.  It can also be revoked if he stops working as an "artist," as he recently announced that he intends to do.

                  I certainly would love to see him arrested, imprisoned, shackled, and forcibly deported back to Canada--just as we treat all the poor people who fall into the clutches of the evil U.S. deportation system.

        •  And I've denounced a couple things as (4+ / 0-)

          war mongering, the comparisons to Hitler and the claims that Russia is going to invade a NATO state. Most of the American propaganda has been about how great the fascists in Ukraine are.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:06:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Self-awareness is not your strong point. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bonsai66, IM, eglantine, duhban
            And I've denounced a couple things as (0+ / 0-)
            war mongering, the comparisons to Hitler
            the fascists in Ukraine
            As with most things, there is an appropriate Simpsons quote here: "But Marge, when I do it, it's funny!"

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:18:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  your continued apologia for fascists in Ukraine (4+ / 0-)

              is pathetic. "They're not fascist, they just idolize a fascist who was too extreme even for the Nazi occupiers!"

              But keep pretending like Svoboda and Right Sektor weren't threatening leftists and people espousing progressive ideas during the protests. Ukraine is "free" now!

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:27:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That one stung, I guess. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bonsai66, eglantine, duhban

                Good. It was supposed to.

                I thing you should say "Fascists" a few more times, but make sure you first whine about other people making Hitler comparisons.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:29:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you are going to continue to pretend Svoboda (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Judgment at Nuremberg, DeadHead

                  and Right Sektor aren't fascists?

                  Keep up the apologia.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:31:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  AoT, you have nailed the exact nature of joe's (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice, AoT, DeadHead

                    activities. Apologia. http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

                    by jm214 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 12:19:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Nasty nonsense. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      eglantine, duhban
                      •  If the shoe fits (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Judgment at Nuremberg, DeadHead

                        joe has been issuing apologia for the fascists in Ukraine for a while now. It's one thing to claim that the government isn't fascist, the majority of the parties in power aren't, it's another to say that the fascist parties aren't fascist. He's in his specially little shell where fascism is only in the countries that are our enemies.

                        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                        by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 01:17:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You've really been stinking up this joint, but (0+ / 0-)

                          that's probably your biggest fart yet.

                          It's classic Karl Rove style bullshit.  YOU are the one doing nonstop KGB-style apologism for the Russian aggression.  So you accuse an opponent of the same thing.  You should be ashamed of yourself, but that's not in your repertoire.

                          joe from lowell is courageous in standing up against your extremely ugly bullshit, and now you call him a defender of FASCISTS!

                          That's bullshit.  That's a fucking lie.  That's RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA!  Straight-up Russian propaganda.

                          The whole story about the Ukrainian revolutionaries being fascists is BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.  And sadly, propaganda works, so many here have bought into the bullshit.

                          (The fact that some anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalist neo-Nazi types have supported the Ukrainian revolution does NOT mean that the revolution itself is fascist.  That's a butt-ugly propaganda lie, that way too many Kossacks have bought into.)

                          All of your posts recently are lies.

                          We're not supposed to accuse other DKos members of being "paid shills," without extraordinary evidence, and I don't have such evidence against you, except perhaps arguably your posting record, so I won't make the accusation explicitly.  But others might reasonably draw different conclusions.  I think you should explain your connection to this geopolitical crisis.

                          MY connection is that I'm a U.S. immigration lawyer with many Ukrainian clients who are out of their minds with fear.

                          I hope you will reconsider, back off, and apologize, after explaining why you're so vehement about this.

                          •  I haven't apologized for shit (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead, Farugia, ZhenRen

                            joe consistently claims that Svoboda and Right Sektor aren't fascists, that's bullshit. They didn't "support" the revolution, they were on the front lines and leftists and progressives told of intimidation from them.

                            My connection is that I'm an anarchist and I've been hearing of my fellow anarchists being attacked by fascists in Ukraine for years, and sometimes killed. Other than that I have no connection, I'm merely angry about idiots claiming that Russia is going to invade Estonia and claiming Putin is like Hitler.

                            Annexing Crimea was wrong, and I've said that again and again. You chose to ignore that completely. You also chose to ignore the reality of fascists in Ukraine because Russia said it was true. You'd probably say the sky wasn't blue if Putin claimed it was at this point.

                            All of your posts recently are lies.
                            And yet you refuse to give a link and show where I lied. Because you can't.
                            We're not supposed to accuse other DKos members of being "paid shills," without extraordinary evidence, and I don't have such evidence against you, except perhaps arguably your posting record, so I won't make the accusation explicitly.  But others might reasonably draw different conclusions.  I think you should explain your connection to this geopolitical crisis.
                            I've been here for seven years and it's all been a ruse perpetrated by the Russian government so they could invade Crimea and trick everyone here at daily kos! You found me out! This is what I'm talking about. Stupid claims like this. Fear mongering. Russians are EVERYWHERE!!!! JUST LIKE HITLER!!!!

                            And I'm being vehement about this because people are making absurd claims and acting as if they make any sort of sense. I mean attacking NATO? And I'm suppose to take this fear mongering seriously?

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 04:40:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I stand on my comments. You're completely (0+ / 0-)

                            wrong.

                          •  So you're apologizing for the fascist (0+ / 0-)

                            parties in Ukraine as well?

                            You're saying that Right Sektor isn't a fascist party?

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:24:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Did you stop beating your wife? (0+ / 0-)

                            Your pro-Russian propaganda posts are all LIES.

                            The anti-Russian Ukrainian revolution is Ukrainian.  It is NOT fascist or Nazi. That's just bullshit Russian propaganda.

                            I must say, you're really working HARD and DILIGENTLY at promoting the pro-Russian, pro-aggression line.  Why is that?

                          •  You have refused to link or quote a single lie (0+ / 0-)

                            I've told. Not even one. You have nothing. All you do is call me a liar and refuse to point to the actual lie.

                            So put up or shut up. Where's the lie?

                            You're saying that Right Sektor isn't a fascist party?
                            You could have just said 'No' and not been another fascist apologist. Instead you claim that every charge of fascism is Russian propaganda and anyone who says the word fascist except as applied to Russia is a shill or an apologist.

                            So again, quote me one lie, just one. You can't do it.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 07:31:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're pretty persistent, but that doesn't (0+ / 0-)

                            make you right. Your own history of posting here is obvious to all and supports all of my claims.

                            I'm not a newbie here.  I read your posts, and I mean what I say.  Howling and screaming doesn't change reality.

                          •  So you can't offer a single quote (0+ / 0-)

                            Good to know.

                            Go off and uprate some more fascist apologias.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 10:58:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Anarchists (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT

                            have stated that they were brutalized by fascistic elements in the Maidan, to the point of having to hide their left wing identifying flags, clothing, etc. It didn't always occur, but the risk was high that it would occur, and it did occur. That is a fact. Fascist flags were hung, the signs of this are all over the place. The thugs tended to have a measure of control. They don't contend the entire numbers of protestors were fascists, but that the fascist and nationalist thugs so aggressive that they were a sort of vanguard, influencing the more moderate members.

                            "The political arena leaves one no alternative, one must either be a dunce or a rogue." Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:27:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Anarchists expressed that they wanted to join (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT

                            protests, and they did to some extent, but the fascist and nationalistic elements were a major problem. Anarchists have discussed this, and are examining the situation to learn what they might be able to do in the future to prevent fascists from exerting undue influence on crowds in future uprisings.

                            And when the thugs gain this kind of influence, it drives away people who don't want to be identified with them. This is what happened. I can give sources, but... I have some family stuff to do at the moment.

                            "The political arena leaves one no alternative, one must either be a dunce or a rogue." Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

                            by ZhenRen on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:32:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps you could link Putin's threat... (8+ / 0-)

      ...There is no need to be pollyannaish about a guy who was a KGB careerist and we shouldn't be. Nor should the way Crimea was annexed be written off as no big deal. But likewise there is no reason to make of Putin's moves something beyond what they actually are. If there are more threats beyond chest-thumping in parliament, then, yes, that's reason to worry.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Mar 20, 2014 at 09:40:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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