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View Diary: D'var Torah: Was Ezekiel really a prophet? (26 comments)

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  •  oh wow, a wikiped link which may corroborate (2+ / 0-)
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    Navy Vet Terp, ramara

    (why didn't i think to look before???)

    Hanania b. hezekiah bl. garon

    Hananiah ben Hezekiah ben Garon (Hebrew: חנניה בן חזקיה בן גרון‎, or in short חנניה בן חזקיה, "Hananiah ben [Son of] Hezekiah") was a Jewish Tanna sage, contemporary of House of Shammai and House of Hillel era. He is recounted as being one of several sages who weighed in on the question of the canonization of the Book of Ezekiel. The contradictions of the Book of Ezekiel are said to have been resolved in the aliyah, or upper chamber, of his house of study. He took 300 barrels of oil along with him, and shut himself at that place, where he looked up and studied their claims, until he was able to resolve the contradictions. Some sources identify this story with his son, Eleazar ben Hananiah.
    When you say, "paid off," it kind of sounds like you think maybe he was paid to come up with a resolution of the conflicts so Ezekiel could be used, rather than that he was looking at whether the conflicts could be resolved or not & report back either way?  Or were you meaning just basically it was the fee paid to him as a scholar needing what to survive on while studying an issue mattering to everyone.

    in the 60's, as i recall, we widely figured ezekiel's visions were psychedelic in origin, but no real idea what hallucinogens (other than alcohol) might've been in public food supply or water supply or babylonian religious rituals or recreations, 'tho maybe the psychosis resulting from ergot, a large dark-colored fungus apparently noticeable in wheats and barley but more missable in rye which is a darker grain.  but the known cases of ergot hallucinations seem to be all horrific, nothing imaginable as hopeful, nor divinely inspired except perhaps from a very negative divine viewpoint,, as chuckie in Rugrats would say, "doobed, we're all doobed!!!!"{he had nasal allergies -})

    •  Of course, if God can send prophecy in dreams (3+ / 0-)
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      Navy Vet Terp, mettle fatigue, Eowyn9

      there's no reason to think He couldn't also send genuine prophetic visions in hallucinatory drug trips.

      •  and as the song in Finian'sRainbow says, (1+ / 0-)
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        Batya the Toon

        'you never know just which is who and who is which".  Not to mention how good or not are humans at interpreting and translating what g-d says.

        •  I read a thing once (2+ / 0-)
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          Eowyn9, mettle fatigue

          saying that the gift of prophecy consists something like 95% of correctly understanding what one has seen.  This writer suggested that the ability to see true visions (especially in dreams) is actually really, really common, and that the unusual thing is the ability to recognize and interpret them.

          No way to say for sure of course, but it's a fascinating thought.

          •  if one subscribes to the hypothesis that (0+ / 0-)

            dreams and/or "visions" are the subjective perception of the mind automatically taking as-yet unprocessed/inconclusive sensory and intellectual input and integrating that 'material' with previously processed input (across the lifetime) --often in symbolic terms, the visual equivalent of metaphor--- then it would make sense that prophecy based on dreams and/or 'visions' represents coherent data-based intuition, such as, for example, "people, if we go on doing this(fill in the space with actions/causes), then that(fill in the space with likely effects) is gonna happen!"

            In this hypothesis, the internal censor is mostly switched off, which puts the burden on the creative receptivity of the dreamer to recognize that a valuable insight is perhaps being formed.  Patricia Garfield's 1974 book Creative Dreaming includes major sections on what we might call 'primitive' cultures in the present and recent past that extensively encourate and utilize lucid-dream interpretation as part of daily life.  Around the same time, I was reading Ursula LeGuin's novel, The Word for World Is Forest and nonfiction materials in dreaming, after seeing a Peter Weir film, The Last Wave that was my first realization that i was far from the only person in the world who dreamed lucidly and learned things from it (if often uncertain just what i was learning, in my case). Before that, i hadn't made any connection at all between the idea of prophecy/visions/dreams (e.g., Joseph's dreams about fat & lean cows, which could easily have been the result of unprocessed perceptions of subtle signs of environmental change intuitively suggesting trouble coming).

            •  The dreams of the fat and lean cows (1+ / 0-)
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              mettle fatigue

              was actually one of the examples in that thing I read, about how the most important part of the gift of prophecy is knowing how to interpret.

              Because those weren't Joseph's dreams at all; they were Pharaoh's.  Pharaoh had a series of true visions in his dreams, but had no way to understand what he was seeing; Joseph was the one with the ability to interpret them into prophecy.

              I've always liked the hypothesis that dreams, like intuitive hunches, can yield correct results because the mind is collecting and analyzing data below the conscious level.  That could be connected to the concept of prophecy, I suppose.

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