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View Diary: The Nuclear Beast 35 Years Later (74 comments)

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  •  on occasion it may. most of the time, though, it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mamooth

    just makes us all look like tinfoil-hat lunatics who flunked fourth-grade science.  (shrug)

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 01:02:52 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Just as often, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, Joieau

      the term is used a a thought-stopping epithet.

      •  fortunately, data trumps (0+ / 0-)

        Present some data, and no thought gets stopped.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 01:40:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am curious about (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          what it is you see as "conspiracy theory" about this diary. Or is that just a general toss-off aimed at disarming likely skepticism?

          There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

          by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 04:59:00 PM PDT

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          •  (sigh) here we go again . . . . . . . (0+ / 0-)

            Read my first comment.

            Then read it again.

            And read it once more if you still don't grock.

            (sigh)

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 05:04:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your first comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sandino

              is here. It says...

              • CT is indeed not permitted here, and
              • too many of [your] fellow anti-nukers indeed do indulge in silly CT kookery.
              • It doesn't help us.

              With a post script about Pu238 production for spacecraft, obviously not directed at me or this diary. I fully concur with your take on what 'killed' nukes in this country, and I expect every pro-nuke worth a mind-dime understands why nukes are not the answer to our energy or pollution issues. Anyone who considers themselves exceptionally bright (as most pro-nukes do) wouldn't seriously blame the hippies for their favorite technology's serious technological shortcomings or its political unpopularity. Not even GE 'believes-in' nukes anymore.

              I was just wondering about the CT thing. From Le Champignon it's dismissible as a throw-away. You, however, have mentioned it in three separate posts to three separate people. It's a fair question, don't you think (without needing to sigh)?

              There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

              by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 05:55:19 PM PDT

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              •  Um . . . . . (0+ / 0-)

                I'm on your side.  

                I didn't say a fucking word about your diary.

                So take a deep breath and calm yourself.

                Geeeeeez.

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 06:01:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, I'm perfectly fine. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  Just wondered, thought I'd ask. Since this diary's been off the list for hours and all, nobody's watching.

                  Meanwhile, the fire burned itself out on the mountainside just after midnight. Which is good, sometimes they go for days, we get the locals, the state and feds. Jumpers, P-3s, bladder-choppers and a couple of spotters. Mostly leaf and dead fall plus some small saplings that needed to be thinned. It's actually good for the forest if it doesn't get hot enough to take out the older trees. This time next month it'll be vibrantly green.

                  Not even smoke today, been raining since daybreak and scheduled to continue through Sunday. Might warm up next week enough to plant out potatoes, peas, leeks and beets. Ducks are laying again after their late winter break, fried rice for dinner tonight - it was tasty. Life is good. You seem a little uptight, though.

                  There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                  by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 06:32:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  ps-- i was referring to my first comment in this (0+ / 0-)

                thread:

                I lived near Three Mile Island in 1979
                and have been anti-nuke ever since. I've been arrested several times over the years at anti-nuke rallies, and worked for Greenpeace and the Sierra Club.

                Of all the problems with nukes back in the 80's--everything from waste storage to weapons proliferation--none of them have been solved yet. And even in this age of global warming, nukes are not the silver bullet some would have us believe they are--nukes have no lower carbon footprint than renewables do.

                Of course I wish the anti-nuclear movement could claim the credit for the death of nuclear power in the 80's and its moribund status ever since, but alas we cannot. It was pure economics that killed nukes in the US.  They were supposed to be cheap cheap cheap, but instead turned out to be expensive expensive expensive--before Duke Energy recently axed its plans for two new nukes in Florida, the price had already tripled and they hadn't even stuck a shovel into the ground yet. Nukes simply can't compete economically. Only a handful of new nukes are actually being ordered today, and it's a pretty good bet that, like Duke's planned-then-cancelled nukes, virtually none of them will ever actually be built.

                (PS--although there are plenty of reasons to oppose nukes, I have sadly found over the years that some of the arguments made by my fellow anti-nukers are simply silly CT nonsense and demonstrate a lack of basic science understanding--things like "whales are fleeing to California to escape the Fukushima radiation!". I try to correct these bogus arguments whenever I can, since they do nothing at all to help us.)

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 06:04:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ah, so. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  I've been known to correct misconceptions when I see them asserted, and outright falsehoods whenever those make an appearance. But apart from misconceptions and outright lies (from one 'side' or the other), I don't care why people stand where they've chosen to stand. Welcome all anti-nukes who care enough to make the effort to understand what they're talking about, and all who simply stand and say very little.

                  On the other hand, pro-nukes may or may not have valid reasons or pertinent technical knowledge. Doesn't matter to me whether or not they understand why their advocacy hasn't, isn't and won't work to change the actual situation. Nukes are dead, they'll all be happier when they accept it. Or keep their angst if they want. No skin off my teeth.

                  I get my 'trons from Duke. They are not my favorite folks. Hope to install solar and microhydro before the year turns. But know how that goes, so not emotionally invested in that timeline.

                  There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                  by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 06:59:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  likewise (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mamooth
                    Welcome all anti-nukes who care enough to make the effort to understand what they're talking about, and all who simply stand and say very little.
                    But when people on our side make arguments that are simply factually and scientifically wrong (such as "the whales are fleeing to California to escape the radiation from Fukushima!") or silly CT nuttery (such as "the nuke industry controls all the science journals!"), all it does is make EVERYONE on our side look like anti-science dolts who flunked fourth grade science, and hands the nuke industry a big club to beat us all over the head with.

                    Such arguments do not help us--they HURT us. We should not make them. And we should not coddle those who do make them. Wrong is wrong, no matter which side it comes from. Period.

                    In the end, reality always wins.

                    by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 07:16:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Meh. I don't think (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sandino, chmood

                      Great Unwashed Masses are paying enough attention to care one way or the other 'why' anybody arguing on either side of this issue feels the way they do. The pro-nukes obviously think all they have to do is shut up the hippies and everything will be hunky dorey for them, but they are misguided. Across the board.

                      People pretty much know where they stand when it starts directly affecting them. They can do that via their guts or their brains, I don't care which and I doubt most other people care either. I believe civilization - the many, not the few - are done with nukes. I don't believe there's any argument a nuke could make that would change that one iota. That's what they get for grabbing the tail of the tiger that's been threatening not just our civilization but our entire species' very existence for well more than half a century now. Hell, the kids don't even hear the noise being made, it's SO over.

                      It would be nice if something could kick it into overdrive, hopefully before the next TMI2, Chernobyl, or Daiichi. But sadly, I doubt it will. My point with this diary is that if we know it's SO over, we need to finish the job. ASAP. I for one don't have another 35 years to wait and see, but I also know that what will be will be. The younger generations can't blame the nuclear state of their world on me. That's all that really counts. To me.

                      There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                      by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 07:50:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  By the way, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  nobody knows why the whales have congregated off the west coast in such numbers and diversity. Including a couple of species so rarely seen that people suspected they might be extinct. Nobody knows why the starfish disintegrated to produce a layer of bottom-slime nobody'd want to swim in. And 'everybody knows' it's Big Pharma that owns the scientific journals! [That's a joke, son].

                  People can content themselves with not knowing, or they can (and will, per their human nature) make connections that may or may not factor into the situation they're concerned about. Big shrug. What bothers me far more are the deliberate deceptions that get spread for the purpose of making people look dumb. But those simply need correction, some links to more reliable data and a reminder that nobody really knows.

                  "EVERYONE on our side" is a broad brush generalization that doesn't have any merit here, in this or any other of my diaries to the subject of nukes. You are the one who brought this, given Le Champignon's one-liner dismissibility. It seems to be, from what I've seen of your posts, something you take rather personally. Because I don't see that anyone's concern about what's happening to the Pacific is anything deserving of ridicule. Nor do I see anti-nuclear sentiment in general to be deserving of ridicule, for whatever reason the sentiment is held.

                  It's kind of like you're ashamed to be associated. Or you've become used to debating the merits/shortcomings of the technology by means of pre-emptive apology for your position. I see no good reason for that, even when dealing with actual nukes. And I've done quite a bit of that over the years. Just so you know.

                  There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                  by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 08:38:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  mammals cannot sense radiation (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mamooth

                    Unless they are carrying geiger counters with them.

                    The simplest reason why there are more whales in the annual migration this year (and of course most Americans are too stupid to even know that the whales migrate every year) is also the best for us----conservation efforts are working, and there are more whales now than there used to be.

                    Yes, I am ashamed to be associated with some of the people on my side.  To some of us, truth still matters.  And when people on my side make silly arguments like that which are simply untrue, it embarrasses me, as well as making us all look like fools.

                    There are plenty of good reasons to oppose nukes. We don't need to make stupid shit up.

                    In the end, reality always wins.

                    by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 08:49:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Now, now. Chill a bit, m'kay? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sandino

                      Many would claim mammals (and/or any other clade) can't sense pheromones either, given positively homeopathic concentrations in a goven volume of medium. Being a synesthete from a long line of synesthetes, I have had occasion to dismiss more than one erstwhile 'expert' making absolute pronouncements about what can and cannot be perceived. Besides, given cetacean breeding and gestation facts as well as recorded mortality among calves, I'm not impressed by your brush-off. Even though I am glad we're not killing as many (directly and on purpose) as we used to. Killing them with the same kind of filth we're killing ourselves with is... merely unfortunate. For them.

                      I would suggest that if you are ashamed to be associated with people who stand with you on any issue, for the sole reason that you believe they're too stupid to be seen with in public, you might ought to choose some different issues on which to take a stand. Far be it from me to embarrass you with my shameful knowledge of nuclear technology and meltdowns, or with my choices in life and lifestyle that might sully you by proximity to hippie Luddite sort of stuff.

                      But I will say that your attitude doesn't strike me as very helpful. You said that already, didn't you? So I'll just wish you good night. The anniversary is over now.

                      There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                      by Joieau on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 09:11:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  mammals cannot sense radiation. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mamooth

                        It is precisely this kind of silly woo-woo baloney, that embarrasses me.

                        PS your knowledge of nuclear technology and meltdowns should have already taught you that mammals can't sense radiation. Pity you don't know any biology.

                        But since talking to woo-woo's is generally pointless, I'll not any further.  I'll just continue to point out that the woo-woo is idiotic, and avoid being lumped together with the woo-woo's.

                        In the end, reality always wins.

                        by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 09:17:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  ps--about those whales (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mamooth
                        Besides, given cetacean breeding and gestation facts as well as recorded mortality among calves, I'm not impressed by your brush-off.
                        Given the fact that you are not a cetacean biologist, I will dismiss your uninformed opinion.  Being an expert in nuclear technology does not make you an expert in everything.

                        But let's ask those who ARE actually experts in cetacean biology:

                        http://www.sciencedaily.com/...

                        http://www.livescience.com/...

                        http://swfsc.noaa.gov/...

                        http://seagrant.uaf.edu/...

                        Wait, wait--let me guess-----they are all part of the nuclear industry conspiracy too, right?

                        (sigh)

                        And now I suppose we'll get to hear your expert opinion as a cetacean biologist why everyone else is wrong about this, huh . . . . . . .

                        In the end, reality always wins.

                        by Lenny Flank on Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 09:32:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Ad hominem argument. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sandino

                          Also a violation of the not-quite DKos "rules." I know it can be frustrating not to be able to find the fight you're looking for, but them's the breaks. Take it elsewhere.

                          There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                          by Joieau on Sat Mar 29, 2014 at 10:21:55 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Again by the way, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sandino

                      I never claimed that mammals can sense radioactivity. Nor have I seen anyone else here claim that mammals can sense radioactivity. Yet another distractive straw man.

                      There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

                      by Joieau on Sat Mar 29, 2014 at 10:17:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

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