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View Diary: I am running against an NRA Democrat. I challenged the NRA at a rally. Here is what happened next. (607 comments)

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  •  "What's wrong with this picture" (10+ / 0-)

    anthropomorphism for starters.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 08:57:26 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  It's when you assign human attributes to animals (7+ / 0-)

        wolves can't be noble and they also can't be wicked. They are neither good nor bad. Sinner nor saint. Anthropomorphism is one of the biggest hurdles we face in the scientific management of wildlife by biologists.

        “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

        by ban nock on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:53:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thanks, i know how to speak english (21+ / 0-)

          if you think that anthromorphism of wolves is the real problem here, i can only respond 'huh?'

        •  Seriously? Our eco-system is noble; (14+ / 0-)

          wolves are part of it. Non-human things are referred to as noble all the time. I don't think of animals as saints; I don't think of humans as saints. I especially don't think of humans as saints when they come up with strawmen that have nothing to do with what I'd actually said.

          What does killing off a species have to do with wildlife management anyway?

          •  first join the fact based world. No one is killing (4+ / 0-)

            off a species called wolf. They are prolific, worldwide, and scientifically listed as a species of "least concern" the lowest possible rating by the IUCN international rating agency. Our government agency staffed by our best wildlife biologists has delisted them everywhere they occur.

            Second. Attributing human characteristics to animals is called anthropomorphising. You asked what is wrong with the picture, I answered. Don't like the answer because it's true, too bad. Animals can not be noble, they are animals not people. It's no strawman, you made the statement.

            You are free to call anything whatever you want. Call worms geniuses for all I care, get stock quotes from a blue jay, carry on conversations with newts, but animals really aren't people.

            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

            by ban nock on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 10:11:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stephen Jay Gould (14+ / 0-)

              We can never know, by studying ourselves alone, whether important aspects of our mental capacities reflect an ancestral evolutionary heritage or new features evolved or socially acquired by our lineage.

              Goodall, In the Shadow of Man

              'Thus Jane Goodall made one of the most important scientific observations of modern times in that remote African rainforest. She witnessed a creature, other than a human, in the act not just of using a tool but of making one.'

              and in the greater good, how we are not apart

              accusations of anthropomorphism are kind of 1940s science, we've moved on

              •  chimps really are just like us (4+ / 0-)

                Jane Goodall herself admitted that she started her research expecting to find in chimps everything that humanity was not: peaceful, innocent creatures with no needs unfulfilled and no wants unfulfillable within what nature made available to them.  It took her a while to come to terms with instead discovering where we got all our bad habits from.

                Even bonobos' radically different social structures and value systems can be attributed to the fact that their territory is far more rich in food than to mystically being the "good ape".  And it turns out bonobos hunt and eat monkeys too.

                Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

                by Visceral on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 11:07:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like dominionism to me... (19+ / 0-)

              which would explain a lot, actually...

              Identifying admirable traits in other species is not anthropomorphising, it's recognizing that we as humans share this planet with others, not just other humans...

              In fact, anthropomorphising kinda sells animals short when one considers the actions and attitudes of some humans...

              Baby, where I come from...

              by ThatSinger on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 10:38:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Where is the evidence? (6+ / 0-)

              Sorry, but there is no scientific evidence that people are any more noble than wolves.  Claiming that only humans are capable of good or evil is junk science.  What do humans have, scientifically, that would make them any more capable of good or evil than wolves?

              Besides, I suspect Samantha, by "noble", simply meant something like grand, honorable, or dignified. Really, just respecting the natural beauty of a unique species, rather than carelessly risk wiping them out.

              An interesting fact about wolves:

              Large predators like wolves and cougar play an important role in maintaining the health of natural ecosystems. Wolves prey primarily on animals that are young or elderly, sick or injured, and weak or unfit, thus keep prey populations healthy.

              http://westernwildlife.org/...

              Maybe that is at least something to respect.
            •  DBAD, please. Who are you to define the fact-based (8+ / 0-)

              world? You're trying to paint me as a fruity hippie, and that is from your imagination and not so much grounded in reality.

              It is very much a strawmen if you say I argued that wolves are like people- funny how you haven't responded to my point that the word noble gets applied to non-humans. That's the word you jumped off of to weave this whole story in your head about my supposed "anthropomorphism."

              I'm not the kind of person to call worms geniuses, thanks, but I do sometimes call assholes assholes.

            •  And you are free to distort the language to your (6+ / 0-)

              own purposes, but "nobleness" has not been a property restricted to human beings since long before English existed. Wolves certainly can be "noble", by any reasonably common understanding of the word's breadth of meaning.

              Of course, you are also free to believe that wolves have no admirable qualities, per the very last line of the definition shown below. Regardless, for your assertion to be true, it would need to be backed up by several pages of careful definitions of your own usage and general philosophy.

              Ultimately, of course, what ticks you off isn't anthropomorphization -- it's that people give ethical value to non-human things, and in particular, to non-human things that you would like to treat otherwise.

              From one online definition:

              noble (adj.)
              c.1200, "illustrious, distinguished; worthy of honor or respect," from Old French noble "of noble bearing or birth," from Latin nobilis "well-known, famous, renowned; excellent, superior, splendid; high-born, of superior birth," earlier *gnobilis, literally "knowable," from gnoscere "to come to know," from PIE root *gno- "to know" (see know). The prominent Roman families, which were "well known," provided most of the Republic's public officials.

              Meaning "distinguished by rank, title, or birth" is first recorded late 13c. Sense of "having lofty character, having high moral qualities" is from c.1600. A noble gas (1902) is so called for its inactivity or intertness; a use of the word that had been applied in Middle English to precious stones, metals, etc., of similar quality (late 14c.), from the sense of "having admirable properties" (c.1300).

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:46:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When people imagine animals are people it's a (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                HoopJones, FrankRose, happy camper

                problem for everyone who has to deal with animals. Weather it's me paying for their protection and management or pilots trying to safely fly aircraft.

                People have been anthropomorphising for a long time, even making animals into gods and demons and monsters. I belong to the fact based world that is based on science.

                Just as worms and horses are different species so too are we. Recognising that fact is a good place to begin any sort of understanding of animals.

                “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                by ban nock on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 03:54:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're right, anthropomorphizing animals has (5+ / 0-)

                  its downsides.

                  Nonetheless:

                  A. The adjective "noble" is not restricted to human characteristics, and has not been for a long, long time. Thus, your original complaint -- that to describe "The Wolf" as "Noble" is to anthropomorphize the wolf -- is straight up and straight out nonsense.

                  B. While animals may not be people, and it may be problematic to ascribe "human" qualities to them, it is at least as problematic, if not moreso, to lie to oneself about what qualities are, indeed, uniquely human. Lacking the capability to communicate directly and clearly with the mind of animals, we cannot say with any great certainty to what extent animals have minds. The blase assumption of most of humanity through most of history -- that animals are of no ethical consequence, that they are incapable of "meaningful" suffering, that they are merely objects for us to exploit at our whim -- that assumption is, from what we might intuit based on observation of animal behavior, almost certainly very, very wrong.

                  It is, however, convenient -- convenient to people like you, that is.

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 06:04:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Okay, try calling a worm noble (0+ / 0-)

                    or a wolf evil.

                    I'm coming at things from the scientific perspective, not the urbanized viewer of Disney perspective. We are the only self aware creature, and our motivations can be viewed from the perspective of ethics, other animals can't, they operate based on instinct, they have no ulterior motives, not nobility or evilness.

                    I understand many urban people have a very limited experience with animals. That's ok.

                    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                    by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:21:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I understand that many rural people have a very (2+ / 0-)

                      ... limited experience with the horrific consequences of gun violence, particularly, gun violence involving the use of insanely-easily-available handguns. That's okay, too.

                      "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                      by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:38:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's where you misunderstand (0+ / 0-)

                        rates of suicide are highest in the rural setting. I assume you are talking about suicide.

                        “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                        by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:47:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why are people in rural areas so depressed? (0+ / 0-)

                          Maybe they should move to urban centers.

                          "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                          by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:02:04 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  mostly they are just old (0+ / 0-)

                            rates of suicide climb steadily after 50 and as one hit's one's 80s they are very high. Males especially.

                            There's nothing wrong with checking out if you're all done.

                            Most folks out here feel nothing but pity for city folks. So uptight and grumpy. Living life in a such a dirty hostile place. Shooting each other all the time and what not. We know our neighbors, say hi to strangers.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:21:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, it's a dreamworld out there. (0+ / 0-)

                            That's why people are blowing their brains out and people like some of the carry crowd here only feel safe while walking around with a gun strapped to their sides.

                            To say nothing of the meth labs.

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:23:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no meth labs here that I've heard of, we leave (0+ / 0-)

                            doors open cars unlocked. Don't know that anyone carries either. We kind of live and let live. You want to carry go right ahead just be safe and no foolishness. Not sure if we allow city folks to handle guns, like little children ya know. Might get hurt.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:43:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heck, most gun toters iz skeerd shitless a comin' (0+ / 0-)

                            ... to da big city, wut with all the crime and the coloreds and stuff.

                            Amazin' enny uv us survive at all!

                            Shit howdy!

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:48:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you're pretty much right about being nervous of (0+ / 0-)

                            city. I have friends who buy handguns and say it's for going to Denver. We are multi colored throughout the greater metro area so no real parts of town by ethnicity. Central Denver just sees a lot more murders but to tell you the truth I don't think about it much. Murder does seem to follow poverty.

                            I just about never go there. Nothing for me. No place to park. Hong Kong, Bangkok, Singapore, all nice cities, US, not so much.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:54:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What a bunch of clueless cowards. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            i saw an old tree today

                            Won't travel to U.S. cities because they're too dangerous?

                            Hilarious.

                            Sounds like the Creation Museum would be the only place such ignoramuses would feel safe.

                            By the way, Colorado is loaded with meth labs:

                            Clandestine methamphetamine laboratories (meth labs) have been a growing problem throughout Colorado and across the U.S. Nationally, more than 8,000 meth labs were raided last year.

                            In Colorado alone, the number of meth lab seizures reported by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has increased threefold in the past three years, up to 450 a year.

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 04:58:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Are you calling me all those names or yourself? (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't like US cities because they suck. Boring, dangerous, dirty, full of angry people. Most countries do cities better than the US.

                            It's true as you point out our cities of Denver and CO Springs have lots of meth labs. I attribute it to living in cities. Like I said we pretty much pity them.
                            http://money.cnn.com/...

                            I'm real sorry but I don't wish to talk to you anymore this evening. You're borderline rude and I seem to remember you posting some idiotic shit about me being a liar about the kind of deer Sotomayor shot.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:18:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ignorance is bliss. (0+ / 0-)

                            Clueless.

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:28:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  A couple of things... (0+ / 0-)

                            First, the vast majority of meth labs are found in rural areas, not urban centers. Meth is the scourge of rural America, and I'm sure the same is true in Colorado.

                            Second, your blanket condemnation of American cities shows how close-minded and ignorant you are. American cities are far from "boring, dangerous, dirty, full of angry people."

                            That is like putting your ignorance up in lights.

                            There are hundreds of interesting, exciting and culturally-rich cities in America. And those cities are loaded with nice people who often go out of their way to help visitors.

                            The fact that you think cities are full of "angry people" most likely reflects on what you project or bring to engagements.

                            I find nice people wherever I go -- cities, rural areas, all across the country and in other places around the world.

                            You get back what you give. Maybe that's why you think American cities are full of "angry people."

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:54:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you didn't follow the link (0+ / 0-)

                            meth labs are in urban counties here.

                            “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                            by ban nock on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 08:21:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Yet rural people are the ones with a higher (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ban nock

                        guns per capita rate.

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 07:53:40 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  But according to ban nock, they're killing... (2+ / 0-)

                          ... themselves with their guns at higher rates (see above).

                          "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                          by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:03:02 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And according to you rural people experience (0+ / 0-)

                            gun violence far less.

                            And according to me rural areas have a higher guns per capita rate.

                            Both statements are perfectly accurate.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:16:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you agree with ban nock that rural folks who (2+ / 0-)

                            ... own guns kill themselves with said guns at higher rates than those not in rural areas?

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:20:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Rural people have higher suicide rates than urban (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ban nock

                            people worldwide, including in Japan.

                            Going back to your comment we have established that urban areas are both more violent & have less firearms per capita.
                            It seems that firearms aren't the issue.
                            As such, why don't you mind your own goddamn business instead of making a politically damaging & ineffective crusade over banning firearms & magazines?

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:27:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, now you're angry! (2+ / 0-)

                            Angry people should probably not own firearms. I know this because MertvayaRuka said so yesterday.

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 08:33:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why would I be angry? You just conceded. (0+ / 0-)

                            Always good talking to ya, Bob.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 09:11:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Conceded what? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            i saw an old tree today

                            You wrote this:

                            As such, why don't you mind your own goddamn business instead of making a politically damaging & ineffective crusade over banning firearms & magazines?
                            Can you point to even a single post I've made where I advocate either of those things? Even one post? On the contrary, I have told you repeatedly that my focus is on making handguns much more difficult to obtain.

                            As usual, all you do is regurgitate your pre-programmed talking points.

                            Push "Play"...

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 09:17:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you don't support the AWB nor the mag ban in (0+ / 0-)

                            Colorado or NY?

                            Good to hear.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 09:26:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't think they're worth fighting over. (0+ / 0-)

                            I agree with you that those are generally "feel good" laws. They may have their place, but the real action should take place in the marketplace. It should be much more difficult to purchase handguns.

                            But, even though I've told you this dozens of times, you insist on regurgitating your pre-programmed talking points. That's why I sometimes suspect you're a bot.

                            Push "Play"...

                            "Bob Johnson doesn't have special privileges, because really, why would I entrust that guy with ANYTHING?" - kos, November 9, 2013

                            by Bob Johnson on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 09:31:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Wld it make sense to support each jurisdiction (2+ / 0-)

                        setting even more of their own gun regulations, in accordance with local democratic wishes? A deer-rifle in Wyoming is not the same thing as a TEC-9 in NYC.

                        There was a presidential candidate who advocated this, can't remember his name offhand. He didn't win. It wasn't gun-control that cost him the election, in fact he was endorsed by the NRA eight times in his previous elections. (I think he lost because of a bad microphone feed. Oh and maybe because he spoke the truth about media, Wall Street, the war-machine, and other powers-that-be, as well as organizational challenges, funding, etc.)

                        He describes the current NRA leadership as "lunatics" and "crazy." I wonder how he'd describe on DailyKos those people who advocate open carry of fully-automatic machine-guns? And I wonder if Meteor Blades would agree that if he questioned their sanity he should be Hide Rated here? ;-)

                        •  deer rifles aren't what the gun debate is about (0+ / 0-)

                          Though generally deer rifle owners support all types of gun ownership and people who hate guns would also like to take deer rifles away.

                          I don't live in an urban setting, so it's hard for me to say what's best for people who do. I do know that if I lived in a place where gun murders were common I too would want a handgun. It's not for me to tell people in cities they can't defend themselves.

                          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                          by ban nock on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 08:25:46 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  For somebody who claims to be all fact-based, (0+ / 0-)

                      you're playing pretty fast and loose here.

                      A. We do not know that we are the only "self-aware" animals. In fact, the scientific consensus is that we are not, but it is very difficult to be categorical about it, and there are naysayers. As I observed, and you have failed to refute: Lacking the means to effectively communicate with them, we cannot really say what goes on inside the minds of animals. You choose to assume that they do not really have minds worthy of the name. You do not know it. You cannot know it. And indeed, the preponderance of the evidence is not on your side. The problem is, of course, if they do have minds, then killing them for jollies becomes ethically dubious. Since you aren't about to give up killing animals for jollies, and you aren't inclined to think of yourself as living a life that is seriously compromised ethically, you pretend to know what you cannot know. Given this simple truth -- that you pretend to know what you cannot know -- your grand pose as Reality Man becomes a pathetic sham, the performance of the pathological liar whose friends are all too embarrassed to call him on his bullshit.

                      B. You continue to pretend, despite having been shown otherwise, that the meaning of the word "noble" is something other than what it is. You do this in a lame attempt to defend your indefensible and ridiculous swaggering into this conversation to grind your big ol' Paul Bunyan axe. This is utterly disingenuous of you, because you are certainly smart enough to understand exactly why your knee-jerk rant was nonsense. In the context of a serious adult discussion, your refusal to simply acknowledge that you said something stupid and unsupportable is an unethical disregarding of those whom you have engaged.

                      C. Your "understanding" of "many urban people" is condescending bullshit. Come down off your high horse, Marlboro Man, because you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. Apart from which, what many rural people have is a pattern, ingrained from their earliest days, of treating animals as mere things, insensate, unconscious, meat automatons existing for the convenience of human self-indulgence. This cramped and limited "knowledge" of animals is not privileged. It is not "noble". It is not more accurate or profound than the knowledge the urban dweller has of their dog or their cat or their cockatiel. To the contrary, it is shallow and distorted, made so out of selfish necessity and unconscious habit: The same selfish necessity that fosters in the cop or the soldier or the CEO an odious and unforgivable contempt for the citizen or the civilian or the laborer.

                      This is the very last time I'm ever going to respond to any thing you write here, because it is so tiresome dealing with your smug bullshit, but here's the bottom line pardner: You aren't the wise deep man of the mountains you like to think you are. You're just a guy who likes to kill animals, and whose understanding of everything under the sun is completely colored by that particular fascination.

                      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                      by UntimelyRippd on Tue Apr 08, 2014 at 09:51:51 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Untimely I just mostly skimmed whatever it is you (0+ / 0-)

                        wrote but it seemed to be full of nastiness. In the end anger is a fairly destructive emotion. I'd deal with it before it consumes you.

                        Good Luck.

                        “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

                        by ban nock on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 08:28:08 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Humans have more in common with wolves, (29+ / 0-)

      a living creature, than they do with guns.

      Yet, think about how many people, mostly men, anthropomorphize their guns! They even have names for them--Ole Betsy, Junior, whatever!

    •  Remember back when there used to be plenty of (9+ / 0-)

      room on Planet Earth for the human race and the rest of the planet. Some of us are just reluctant to move any further from that ideal than absolutely necessary.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 09:53:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fine, anthropomorphism aside... (23+ / 0-)

      ...they are a very necessary species for the health of an ecosystem.  Noble or not, anywhere wolves have been re-introduced into the ecosystem, the results have been in their favour, meaning that overgrazing in an area by deer ceases and the land is allowed to go back to the scattered woodlands it once was.

      Much of the park had become a near desert of empty, weedy scrubland because deer that had been living with no predators had grazed down almost everything.  Bringing them back not only reduced the deer population that we couldn't control, but they also helped a host of other species to recover, both plant and animal:

      Killing the wolves is a lose-lose proposition for anyone who wants to preserve wild-spaces like Yellowstone.  The NRA and their support of the wolf culls receive only my disgust at their ignorance and overall stupid adherence to their god, money.

      I don't need to think of a species as "noble" or charismatic to want to preserve them.  Important links in the food chain have too many times been disrupted by our greed or just by our need to survive for me to only concentrate on the "pretty" ones.  :-)

      If we acknowledge our fears, then we must also acknowledge the consequences of our actions when we react to those fears. Hate is based on fear, fear comes from a lack of understanding. When you understand, it is more difficult to hate.

      by TheProgressiveAlien on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 10:04:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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