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View Diary: New Push By Russian Separatists In Ukraine (133 comments)

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  •  I am more interested in actions than words. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BMScott

    I am waiting for those to unfold. I find the Putin the devil vs Putin the saint argument to be unproductive.

    I do recognize that Putin is a man with political talent.

    •  So far Putin's actions have matched his words (2+ / 0-)
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      Involuntary Exile, Lepanto
      I find the Putin the devil vs Putin the saint argument to be unproductive.
      Putin is no saint and but he's no devil. You have to give him credit for pulling the country out of the shit hole the US favored Yeltsin left it in.

      Russian economy since fall of Soviet Union

      •  And yet... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        amyzex

        His recent bargains have poised a great threat to that economic development, by alienating a large segment of the world for some pomp and circumstance at home.

        He has also, simultaneously, curtailed journalistic freedoms and personal freedoms quite extensively. The ends sometimes justify the means, more often they do not. But either way it does not mean much of anything. Putin knows strength is strength, and has taken an approach to build that ASAP. He knew the greatest threat to Russia was really it's weakness after the fall of the USSR.

        But, yes, actions count more than words. I'm not sure if you have ever encountered someone who would say and do everything you wanted to hear, make you think they're a swell person, only to one day realize that in that process they've robbed you blind.

        Putin is a pro-spook. He knows how to lie convincingly, back up many of those lies into truths when it is convenient, and turn the tables when he is ready. It's a mark of someone who knows how to control the game. And right now, he feels he controls the game. He has the nukes to hold off much action, and he knows how to chip-away the situation in ways to make the people in Western States grappling with each other over his intention. All the while he creatively acquires some new real estate and restores some perceived lost glory.

        That last part is what makes this so dangerous. The whole situation has nothing to do with a threat, or even resources. It's an ego move, for him and for Russia. It's been nothing but moves to prove greatness and power. And you can't reason with that.

        You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

        by weathertop on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 10:28:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Economic ties with western multinationals has not (0+ / 0-)

          been destroyed. They are still continuing to do business with Russia.

          Here's a partial list of very recent investments.

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Putin is a pro-spook.
          Obama is pro-spook. He is now protecting the CIA. Bush I was in charge of the CIA - can't get spookier than that.
          I'm not sure if you have ever encountered someone who would say and do everything you wanted to hear, make you think they're a swell person, only to one day realize that in that process they've robbed you blind.
          That's not Putin. He tells it like it is or he doesn't speak. He is certainly NOT a "feel nice" guy.
          All the while he creatively acquires some new real estate and restores some perceived lost glory.
          I don't think regaining Crimea gives him a hard on. Anyone who knows the history of the region would realize it was something he was forced to do.
          It's an ego move, for him and for Russia. It's been nothing but moves to prove greatness and power. And you can't reason with that.
          Nonsense. Post Soviet Russian leaders have never been as egoistic as American leaders on the world stage. Putin is a hard-nosed asshole because that is what is required in his neck of the woods. Yeltsin got trampled upon as the country was pillaged. The country needed someone with tougher balls.
          •  You seem to be very adamant about defending Putin (0+ / 0-)

            Putin's a nice guy under all his tough-guy stance, eh? Westerners have it all wrong... Putin is just doing what's best for the people of Crimea and Ukraine.

            Swallow VoR and RT propaganda wholesale, or do you distill your own at home?

            Putin was former KGB Black Operations, illegal operations. He has spent the bulk of his life living off of lies and deception, getting people (like you) to believe what he's giving until he decides you're no longer part of the equation. That is quite a bit different than a political suit just defending the CIA, leading the CIA, or otherwise being attached to the CIA.

            As far as Putin's attitude, and Russia's attitude, toward regaining Crimea, apparently you didn't get the post annexation speech he made to the Russian legislature. Putin wasn't forced to annex Crimea, and it's history is long and convoluted, and if we want to get to the nuts and bolts, Russians should have left since it's Tartar ethnic lands anyway. But, yes, Crimea and it's re-entry into the Federation gives Putin and Russia in general a massive woody. It is a area of deep importance to them, as close to something as important Mecca as they can get. Important - yes. Required to be part of the Federation? No.

            Either way, it does not excuse his actions in a sovereign nation. He'll get away with Crimea for the most part, and Crimea will be a Taiwan or Tibet. Eastern Ukraine? Donetsk and other cities? That is where his bets on Red will come up short.

            Also, notice how Donetsk claims independence as a People's Republic, and Crimean Russian's flew the Russian Federation Flag with hammers and sickles. The USSR is far from being over. It was rebranded and has a new marketing director.

            You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

            by weathertop on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 01:47:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Cold War ended decades ago. (0+ / 0-)
              Putin's a nice guy under all his tough-guy stance, eh? Westerners have it all wrong... Putin is just doing what's best for the people of Crimea and Ukraine.
              I never said Putin was a nice guy. He's a hard assed president who understands realpolitik. He does what is best for Russia.
              http://www.forbes.com/...
              Russia's Economic Growth In Comparison With The G7

              What these graphs show is something that, by this point in time, should be glaringly obvious: that Russia has been growing much more rapidly than the other G7 countries ever since its economy bottomed out in 1998 and has also recovered much more rapidly from the global financial crisis and the “great recession.” This doesn’t mean “Putin is great!” or “Russia is the future!” but it does mean that anyone who suggests that Russia is chronically under-performing in comparison with the West, or that its economy is incapable of growing, ought not to be taken very seriously.

              Truth be told, Russia’s current economic model is not a particularly compelling one. Any minimally honest analysis will concede that it has a very large number of serious structural deficiencies that must be addressed if it is to continue growing at 4% for the next 5-10 years. But if you focus on actual results, as opposed to what should happen based on various kinds of economic theories, Russia has had a pretty good run over the past 14 years, a period of time during which the G7′s performance has been distinctly underwhelming. This reality is something to keep in mind the next time someone berates Putin for his ham-handed and unsuccessful economic management.

              You have a very superficial and propagandized knowledge of Putin.
              Russians should have left since it's Tartar ethnic lands anyway
              In that case, the Ukrainians should also leave Ukraine to the Tatars, Poles and Lithuanians. And maybe the Americans should leave North America because it's Native American ethnic land.
              The USSR is far from being over. It was rebranded and has a new marketing director.
              That's complete nonsense.

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