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View Diary: New Push By Russian Separatists In Ukraine (133 comments)

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  •  This is nothing surprising (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FarEasterner, FG, amyzex

    for those who have been paying attention the last several months. But, all we get here in America is a band of folks complaining that "Russia isn't doing anything America has done for decades", some other BS about moral high road, and the usual "orchestrated coup" stories. All ignoring the fact that A) No, the United States has not done anything like this in the 21st Century, or even really in the 20th century. Have we screwed up? Yes. Is it close to what Russia is doing? No, actually it isn't. And besides, let's say for sake of argument it was: two wrongs don't make a right; and B) The orchestrated coup conspiracy theory is pretty lame at this point. Much like the "every shooting is a false flag operation" conspiracy theory that crops up all the time. Provide proof, or it didn't happen.

    At this point though, it's pretty clear this is not going to end well. On the low end of the totem, Ukraine get's carved up like a cheap lamb chop. Half way up, Russia rolls across, takes out the separatist region of Moldova too, and the West goes "Aww, shucks, Puty... did ya really have to do that?", and worse case scenario we end up in a direct confrontation with Russia.

    Ideally, the toddlers involved in all of this get a diaper change and a time out, while the rest of us get a chance to clean up the royal clusterfark that has been created there.

    On a side note, out of all the world leaders I've ever seen, Putin is about the only one I'd say actually appears to not have any feelings. Even Kim Jong Un expresses laughter and feelings, still remaining the bastage he is. So did the late Hugo Chavez. Putin, every time I see him, is an empty shell of a human void of emotion or empathy.

    You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

    by weathertop on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 10:15:31 AM PDT

    •  I suspect you didn't see (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac

      Russian TV lately where his overwhelming larger than life image dominates with plenty of emotion and empathy and so on.

      Western TV castrates his image to fit him into prescribed pattern of delusional dictator.

    •  The United States of Amnesia (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lepanto
      Have we screwed up? Yes. Is it close to what Russia is doing? No, actually it isn't.
      How many of these bombings have occurred after the fall of the Soviet Union? How many American bombs continue to fall in various countries as we speak?
      http://www.maurer.ca/...

      Here is a list of the countries bombed by the United States since the end of the Second World War:

      Afghanistan 1998, 2001-
      Bosnia 1994, 1995
      Cambodia 1969-70
      China 1945-46, 1950-53
      Congo 1964
      Cuba 1959-1961
      El Salvador 1980s
      Korea 1950-53
      Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69
      Indonesia 1958
      Laos 1964-73
      Grenada 1983
      Iraq 1991-2000s
      Iran 1987
      Kuwait 1991
      Lebanon 1983, 1984
      Libya 1986, 2011
      Nicaragua 1980s
      Pakistan 2003, 2006-
      Palestine 2010
      Panama 1989
      Peru 1965
      Somalia 1993, 2007-08, 2010-
      Sudan 1998
      Vietnam 1961-73
      Yemen 2002, 2009-
      Yugoslavia 1999

      On a side note, out of all the world leaders I've ever seen, Putin is about the only one I'd say actually appears to not have any feelings.
      Putin actually has a well developed sense of humour.

      On Snowden: "I'd prefer not to deal with this issue at all—it's like shearing a pig—too much squealing, too little wool."

      "Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."

      •  You seem to confuse things... (0+ / 0-)

        Like annexation versus meddling.

        Your entire list contains countries that the US has, admittedly, made some quite substantial mistakes.

        Unless I'm mistaken, and Bostnia is secretly a 51st state... which of these have resulted in Annexation?

        The answer... none.

        Brain-dead administration, and half-cocked assistance to rebels in hopes of getting a favorable government does not equal annexation.

        In the game of global world politics, providing arms against a rag-tag group of rebels to get a Government that would be favorable to ones interests is acceptable. Hell, it's how the United States was formed to begin with, unless people forgot that the French meddled in Britain's little problem in the Colonies and that eventually bit France in the ass when that newly-formed nation took on their outposts.

        You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

        by weathertop on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 02:02:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So Annexation is the red line in the sand now? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac

          Interesting....

          Looks like Putin changed the rules of the game. You can cry about the red line being crossed or realize you're now playing by different rules.

          Plus who would the US annex? Mexico?? Yeah, highly doubt the nice white people of the US would want all those brown voters. Canada? Why bother? For a few tar sands and a bunch of liberals? The rest have to many brown or black people living in them. Or just plain ole too poor. Easy to draw that red line in the sand when it doesn't affect you. Or maybe Puerto Rico will become the 51st state after all..

        •  Interesting argument (0+ / 0-)
          In the game of global world politics, providing arms against a rag-tag group of rebels to get a Government that would be favorable to ones interests is acceptable.
          I think you meant to say "to" a rag-tag group of rebels, not "against."  Would we all be better off if it wasn't considered acceptable?  If the Soviets were still occupying Afghanistan and they had killed Osama twenty years ago?

          The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

          by amyzex on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 02:35:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Soviets were suckered into invading due to US (0+ / 0-)

            support and arming of the mujaheddin. You need to read about Operation Cyclone.

            The result of that covert operation was to destroy the Afghanistan of the 50's and 60's.

            This is Afganistan of 50s and 60s PHOTOS

            Lots of people would think that they will see pictures of wild, underdeveloped and medieval country with lif e conditions worse than now. Oh well, think again.

            On a recent trip to Afghanistan, British Defense Secretary Liam Fox drew fire for calling it "a broken 13th-century country."
            ...
            But that is not the Afghanistan I remember. A half-century ago, Afghan women pursued careers in medicine; men and women mingled casually at movie theaters and university campuses in Kabul; factories in the suburbs churned out textiles and other goods. There was a tradition of law and order, and a government capable of undertaking large national infrastructure projects, like building hydropower stations and roads, albeit with outside help. Ordinary people had a sense of hope, a belief that education could open opportunities for all, a conviction that a bright future lay ahead. All that has been destroyed by three decades of war, but it was real.

        •  Meddling? Substantial mistakes? WTF? (0+ / 0-)

          The death and destruction of the lives of uncounted millions and you call it meddling and a mistake? You seem to have forgotten. Maybe you never learned about it in the first place if you went to a US school.

          You need a history lesson. Here's just a few. In each of these three illegal conflicts people are still dying. Thousands every year - right at this very moment!


    •  I basically agree with your position (0+ / 0-)

      But Claudius' challenge above is a potent one.  You should respond to it.  In what sense is Putin worse than say George W. Bush?

      The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

      by amyzex on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 12:44:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The key is annexation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        amyzex

        GWB's foray into Afghanistan was marginally acceptable, but at least did have the pretense of shutting down a global terror network that was setup there. The end result is Afghanistan is free now to choose it's own course, with of course a warning that if it doesn't grow up and act like a mature country and keep on it's little terror cells that someone, America or another country, may be back.

        Had GWB or Obama annexed Afghanistan, passed an Organic act, brought it in to the fold as a Overseas Territory, and setup a Territorial Governor, then yes, GWB would have committed the exact same crime as Putin.

        For those who have trouble though, let me clarify: Take GWB or any American President, or Congress, to The Hague on charges, and hang them. I'll buy the event on PPV even if it means mortgaging a house or something. But to sit here on this issue and say that the West shouldn't be mad at Putin is an absurd notion.

        Do I wish a few American leaders had to spend some jail time for their mistakes? Sure. But it's not a pass on anyone else.

        You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

        by weathertop on Mon Apr 07, 2014 at 02:08:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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