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View Diary: Freedom of speech: Freedom of protest (96 comments)

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  •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

    America had laws against it before Loving (good thing its gone too, as i have an Asian wife). But i'm talking across the globe through the course of history.

    How many countries had those sort of laws? How far back in time do they go. That i can only think of a few examples of those sorts of laws is why i say that they are the aberation.

    Most people in history have not lived under a system that prohibited them from marrying outside their race.

    Most people in history have lived under a system that they could only marry outside their gender.

    Thus the former, from a historical perspective is easier to see as beyond the pale than the latter.

    •  I have to say (0+ / 0-)

      this is quite the silly construct.

      DOMA was not enacted until 1996.

      By your reasoning anti federal laws against gay marriage are fairly recent.

      •  no (0+ / 0-)

        before the last few years, no state permitted gay marriage.  And the religious prohibitions are quite ancient and widespread.

        I can think of no major religion that had a prohibition against marrying a different race. Though i'm sure some local ones existed in the U.S.

        looking across countries, religions and history

        Allowing gay marriage is a new thing
        Allowing interracial marriage is not a new thing

        •  You'll have to show me the (0+ / 0-)

          express prohibitions on gay marriage that existed "historically."

          As for religions, there were and are express prohibitions on homosexuality period. Marriage was never a question.

          Why you choose to concentrate on marriage discrimination as opposed to the entire prohibition on homosexuality is not clear to me.

          You seem to think the recent vintage of gay marriage prohibition arose independent of the rise of gay rights.

          Your exercise is quite silly.

          •  Isn't the absense (0+ / 0-)

            of gay married couples in history proof that it was prohibited? You aren't suggesting that it has long been permitted, but that no one bothered to do it are you?

            Marriage historically was a religious institution and i can't think of any significant religion that allowed it historically. But i can only speak with certitude about the Catholic Church since that's what i grew up with.

            I wonder when the first  church decided to allow it as a matter of doctrine.

            The context of the diary was marriage discrimination. So that's just staying on topic.

            I don't think that the gay marriage prohibition is recent. The cracks in the old prohibtion lead to patches like DOMA. The cracks certainly came from the rise of gay rights movement.

            •  Homosexuality was prohibited (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I donl;t get what your point is.

              •  His point is straightforward (0+ / 0-)

                and was stated fairly clearly in his first comment. He’s saying that objecting to gay marriage is not really analogous to objecting to interracial marriage, because if you look at the entire span of human history, permitting gay marriage is the exception, but in the case of interracial marriage it’s the prohibitions against it that are the exception.

                It’s a broad generalization, but it’s basically correct, not least because the whole notion of race is a fairly modern construct.  Whether it actually affects the argument in your diary is another question; I don’t think that it does.

                •  Yeah no (0+ / 0-)

                  The notion the interracial marriage was just accepted in history is well, ridiculous.

                  But you go with that if you want.

                  •  I repeat: the whole notion of race (0+ / 0-)

                    is a fairly modern construct.  For most of the historical period people simply weren’t classified by race as we use the term; they were classified by religion, language, wealth/status, and other cultural markers.  The very term race only appeared in the 16th century, and then only in the sense ‘tribe, nation, people of a common stock’; the common only modern sense appears in the second half of the 18th century.

                    By the way, you could stand to read a little more carefully: I did not say that the notion of interracial marriage was ‘just accepted in history’.  I said that the prohibitions against it are relatively modern, which is true.  I also explained why it’s true: the notion itself makes sense only in relatively modern terms. Obviously, then, the notion can’t have been ‘just accepted in history’.

                    •  Race is a modern concept, but 'foreigner' isn't (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      happymisanthropy, BMScott

                      The hatred of Samaritans in the New Testament (and in the post-Exile parts of the Hebrew bible) is about they rejection of people they perceived to be half-bloods. The story of Ruth, on the other hand, pushes back against the idea that you can't marry foreigners. (Despite the setting, Ruth is written post-Exile).

                      Many societies have been open to mixed marriages. Many societies have banned them (although accepting non-marital sexual relations). Endogamy, of one form or another, is commonplace.

                      And no, same-sex marriage is not merely a modern phenomenon. Wikipedia may not be the best place to get your history, but it's a heck of a lot better than the 'common wisdom' of contemporary America.

                    •  Really? What about all the noble savages, and all (0+ / 0-)

                      the slaves around the world? Historically, slaves were of another race, tribe or town.

                      I don't think you nor Sam know much about interracial marriage bans. They were everywhere until the late 20th Century. All over the world.

                      Where did both of you get your education? I got mine from decent public schools and universities.

                •  Define "modern" (0+ / 0-)

                  Yes, we are at that point in this debate.

                  No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

                  by koNko on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:03:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  It didn't occur to anyone that same sex marriage (0+ / 0-)

            would be a thing, so nobody ever undertook to ban it until approximately the 1990s when some people began to take it seriously.

               The laws against racial intermarriage derived from the institution of slavery and started out as bans on marriage between free people and slaves or free people and indentured servants. Apparently it had to do with status at first, with the concept of "race mixing" coming along later.
              The term "miscegenation" wasn't invented until 1863.
              In 1870, a (white) Mississippi state senator married an African American woman with no adverse effects on his political career.

        •  The early Christian Church performed (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          koNko, happymisanthropy, Tonedevil

          gay marriages.

          This is an interesting article worth reading in its entirety:

          Were these same-sex unions in the middle ages the same thing as today's gay marriages? Probably not. People at the time may not have viewed two men forming a union as anything out of the ordinary. Marriage itself meant something different thousands of years ago, and social taboos against homosexuality had not yet solidified. Still, in Boswell's work, we find records of institutions where same-sex couples were honored with the same ceremonies that opposite-sex couples enjoyed. Two men could live as "brothers," sharing wealth, home, and family. And yes, they could love each other, too.

          It always seems impossible until its done. -Nelson Mandela

          by chuckvw on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:18:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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