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View Diary: 20 Stabbed, 8 Critically in Pennsylvania School Attack (268 comments)

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  •  I have long suspected (19+ / 0-)

    that a lot of this youth violence is the direct result of dosing these developing human beings full of psychotropic drugs at a very early age.

    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

    by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 10:51:18 AM PDT

    •  Do you suppose that human beings that are dosed (14+ / 0-)

      full of psychotropic drugs have an underlying mental illness that could also play a role?

      "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

      by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 11:02:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I suspect a lot of them have no need (18+ / 0-)

        to be dosed with those drugs at all.

        I'm sure I didn't make that clear initially.

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 11:27:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's both (16+ / 0-)

        some children really need meds and counseling.  But there are many that are simply dosed for convenience, so they will comply.

        My girlfriend's child is an example of this.  Her little boy was being "bad" in class.  Talking alot, giggling and carrying on with his friends.

        They advised that he go to a doctor to be put on meds for hyperactivity.  He's 8.

        If he had lazy parents, they would have shrugged and got him meds.  Instead they had a meeting with the teacher, and afterwards decided instead to pay to send him to private school.

        Guess what?  No complaints.  He's doing great.  My friend thinks that he was just bored, and since he is naturally talkative, that's what he did.

        I have heard anecdotal evidence in my travels that this story is not uncommon - kids being medicated not out of medical need but for the convenience of the school.

        •  Our daughter's kindergarten teacher... (11+ / 0-)

          ...did the same thing (7 years ago).

          We were completely flabbergasted and needless to say didn't heed her advice. She couldn't be doing better. But I have to imagine that there are plenty of parents who might be struggling with their children who hear such things from an authority figure like a school teacher and simply comply.

        •  Schools No Longer Challenge the Bright Ones (6+ / 0-)

          I have come to realize that America itself, to extrapolate, is no longer interested in your best, your brightest.

          I just had a discussion about this over lunch. In certain circumstances, say you work for an engineering firm on a "cash cow" program, one that depends on customer satisfaction over, say, innovation or bringing new products to the market (think a defense contractor as opposed to a Space-X). Well, if the boss gives his new hire a task and tells him to come back in two weeks, and the energetic new hire comes back in two days with a "mission accomplished" banner, that could be a problem for the boss!

          Likewise, I realized I cut a thousand classes in my high school career not because I hated learning, but because I hated not being challenged or engaged in the class. If only I had taken more drugs in high school, school work might have been more challenging, heheh.

          •  It has always been that way (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            where4art, dackmont, Bluesee

            Class rooms tend to teach at medium speed to slow for some to fast for others. It was like that when I was in grade school and that was a very long times ago.

            I am probably one of those that they would have tried to medicate because I was forever bored. But they didn't have that option back then.

            I know they labeled my cousin a "problem child". He got kicked out of 3rd grade had to go to private school where he graduated high school at 14, went on a full ride scholarship to Harvard and graduated from their law school shortly before his 21st birthday.

            It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is not what he has -Henry Ward Beecher

            by PSWaterspirit on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 06:52:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Me too. I was bored out of my skull until (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie

              11th grade. Except in the math-intensive courses, which I couldn't make heads or tails of. And got pretty much no help in.

              Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:44:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  This is offensive (11+ / 0-)
          If he had lazy parents, they would have shrugged and got him meds.
          My partner and I's 13 year old was having issues in school - talking too much, excessive outbursts, etc...  We took him to a therapist who suggested putting him on medication until we could get to the root of the behavior and find a treatment.  He was on the medication for about 2 years, it genuinely helped him.

          We are not lazy parents.  Our child simply couldn't focus and wouldn't stop talking.  Since neither of us could afford to A.) take time off to sit with him in class and see what the issue was or B.) send him to private school  we were left with C.) try medication, along with vitamins and therapy and see what happens.  I was also on meds for hyperactivity when I was a child - didn't harm me in the least.

          It is beyond offensive to say that putting a kid on meds for a little while is somehow "lazy".  

          It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness- Unknown -7.50, -5.03

          by dawgflyer13 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:57:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, does the commenter have any evidence (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eru, New Jersey Boy

            for this convinction? Otherwise, slamming the disabled for being disabled is pretty unkind. I'm convinced that people that base their convictions on emotions aren't helping to find solutions.

            •  It is lazy at best and stupid at worst to say (4+ / 0-)

              that a kid should take a drug without knowing the kid's diagnosis.  But teachers do this all the time.  Sure, they can legally only suggest, but their words -- their contribution to the "social history" that the prescribing doc will take into account -- can carry weight.  It's the parents' responsibility to ask questions and make sure the prescribing doc knows what they're doing, and the doc's responsibility not to overprescribe.

              Putting a kid on meds without doing the homework is lazy.  That's what the commenter was getting at.  (At least, as I read their words.)

              The commenter certainly didn't say that putting a kid on meds was necessarily lazy, and sure as hell didn't slam the disabled for being disabled.  What the commenter did do was slam overdiagnosis and overprescription, and faux diagnosis by the grossly unqualified.

              The extent to which overprescription occurs is debatable, and some believe it's extensive while others believe it doesn't happen at all.  I don't see how engaging that debate insults parents or disabled kids.

              "Happiness is the only good. The place to be happy is here. The time to be happy is now. The way to be happy is to make others so." - Robert Ingersoll

              by dackmont on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:33:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Can't ask for better than the South Park (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie

          treatment of this issue.

          Not that I don't believe that some kids do actually have disorders that require drugs--just a lot fewer than people claim.

          Timmy!!!

          Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:40:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Don't go there. (44+ / 0-)

      You have NO evidence to support that claim, and you further stigmatize men, women and children whose lives are improved or even saved by the use of these drugs.

      Leave that fearmongering to the Scientologists.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 11:29:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What rubbish. (14+ / 0-)

        I reject the idea that I'm stigmatizinganyone if I proffer my own opinion that I have long suspected that young children (and others, for that matter) have been prescribed drugs unnecessarily in this country. It happens all the time, with all manner of medication.

        I did make clear that it was my suspicion. I never made any claim otherwise. And I'm far from the only "mainstream" thinker who has ever "suspected" such a thing.

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 11:43:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sadly, (19+ / 0-)

          on your latter point, you're right.

          More's the pity, because of the stigma such backward thinking creates.

          You're also right that people are prescribed drugs, including antibiotics, including treatments for misdiagnosed medical ailments, and including psychiatric pharmaceuticals, unnecessarily. Of course, many MORE people are not prescribed such when they could benefit from them, often because of the stigma.

          But you also go that unfortunate step further and try to tie these unnecessary prescriptions to mass violence like this. And that is not only completely unjustifiable, it's truly abhorrent.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 11:47:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You can both be right, you know (31+ / 0-)

            It is a fact that many people can benefit from correctly prescribed medications. It's no exaggeration to say they save lives. And people who frown on, or even try to eliminate, use of such medications are ignorant and dangerous.

            It is also a fact that people can be harmed by over-prescribing or inappropriate use of medications.  There is growing concern and awareness about this issue - everything from overuse of antibiotics to over-prescribing of drugs for small children to treat "ADHD".(ADHD in quotes because often proper diagnosis has not occured). And people who refuse to consider or discuss that point are not helpful, either.

            “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

            by Catte Nappe on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:09:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you (4+ / 0-)


               

              It is also a fact that people can be harmed by over-prescribing or inappropriate use of medications.  There is growing concern and awareness about this issue - everything from overuse of antibiotics to over-prescribing of drugs for small children to treat "ADHD".(ADHD in quotes because often proper diagnosis has not occured). And people who refuse to consider or discuss that point are not helpful, either.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:15:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We can both be right (5+ / 0-)

              on the twin points of drugs' value and their misuse, or even overuse.

              But we can't both be right on the question of whether or not it's appropriate to blame pharmceuticals for mass violence at schools without any evidence.

              So, no, this isn't a "you're both right" situation.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:16:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you're so worried about "stigma" (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mikejay611, Portia Elm, Chi, Kevskos

                then why don't you simply stop calling attention to this thread?  You've made your point abundantly clear several times now.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:19:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Please, (8+ / 0-)

                  heap another disingenuous argument on top of your disingenuous arguments.

                  No, I'm all too happy to call attention to the fact that your attempts to tie psychiatric medication to mass violence are without evidence, without support, and without value -- that other people seeing these Scientologist-worthy attempts to create FUD will recognize them for what they are.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:22:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Please stop belaboring the point (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Portia Elm

                    raptavio. At this point, it makes less sense to go on and on about my little comment and a metric fuckton more sense to figure out WTF we're going to do to ward off the fucking gun lobby. I can hear them now...

                    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                    by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:28:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  psst -- (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      samddobermann, samanthab, eru, gramofsam1

                      you want me to stop belaboring the point? Stop belaboring the point. Or better still, walk back your pernicious claim blaming these drugs for this school violence.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:48:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Psst (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Portia Elm, rbird, Kevskos

                        Move on, raptavio--everyone else seems to have done so.

                        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                        by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:56:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Is that so? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          samanthab

                          Then why are you here?

                          And why can't you admit your claim is without evidence or support?

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:03:01 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't have to admit anything (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Portia Elm

                            about my own opinion. Take what you want and leave the rest.

                            I've moved on to other parts of this discussion. You should think about doing the same.

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:05:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's not your opinion. (5+ / 0-)

                            You are making a claim of fact, not opinion.

                            You don't get to call it your opinion because your claim of fact is unsupported.

                            Well, rather, you do get to, but that, too, is disingenuous.

                            Either drugs cause school violence or they don't. It is either factual they do, or it is factual they don't.

                            To call it opinion is a dodge to avoid supporting your claims of fact.

                            And if you'd moved on, you wouldn't still be posting.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:07:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never claimed it was "fact". (0+ / 0-)

                            How many times do I have to say that before you're satisfied?  

                            I do not need your permission to post here. I would appreciate it--and I'm sure many others would as well, at this late stage of the discussion--if you would simply let this go.  

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:14:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have had the power (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            samddobermann, samanthab, eru

                            to end this at any time -- just stop posting about it.

                            As long as you continue to post about it and hedge, I'm happy to pound your continued disingenuous arguments.

                            Such as trying to call your assertions "opinions" when they are about matters of fact, not opinion. I don't care whether you say "I'm not calling it fact" -- that's just a dodge.

                            Such as your "suspicion" -- which you can't even admit is completely unfounded -- that drugs are responsible for school violence.

                            And such as your complete denial that making such claims, even in the form of groundless "suspicions", do harm in the form of spreading FUD and creating stigma.

                            So you want me to let it go? Stop giving me the same disingenuous fodder to keep holding onto. Or better yet, retract your claims or admit they're completely groundless.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:20:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  . (0+ / 0-)
                            So you want me to let it go? Stop giving me the same disingenuous fodder to keep holding onto.
                            Nobody is making you hold on to it, raptavio.

                             

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:23:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  True. (0+ / 0-)

                            However, I'm not the one who wants me to stop holding onto it, now am I? Like I said, I'm happy to keep hammering the point for as long as you want to keep presenting me the nails.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:29:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL! (0+ / 0-)

                            You're so funny, falling all over yourself to make this about me. Have a great evening, dear raptavio :)

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:31:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is about you, lunachickie, (5+ / 0-)

                            because you're the one spreading FUD about those with mental illness, and in particular those who use medication to treat mental illness.

                            It's just another form of prejudice that liberals should do better than promote.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:32:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think you two should get a room...... (5+ / 0-)

                            Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. Frank Zappa

                            by Da Rock on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:49:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Da Rock

                            as if  

                             

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:34:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Please. I just ate. (0+ / 0-)

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:27:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am soooo tired of this shit . . . . (8+ / 0-)

                            Why in hell should anyone CARE about your uninformed opinion? Especially if you have zero evidence or data of any sort whatever to back it up?

                            We on the left take justifiable pride in our tolerance. We openly advocate that EVERYONE should be treated equally, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else.

                            BUT . . .

                            When we attempt to apply that same "tolerance" to matters of SCIENCE (and "do medical drugs cause violence in kids?" is a matter of SCIENCE, not of opinion), we are utterly absolutely inexcusably wrong. Science is not a democracy. Science cares about facts and evidence, not about opinions. In science, all opinions are NOT equally valid or equally worthy of consideration, and no one can demand that they have a "right" to have their opinions given equal consideration. In science, there are only two kinds of opinions---those which conform to demonstrable facts and data, and those which DON'T. And we refer to the ones which don't as  . . . WRONG. Period. End of debate.

                            And if you post your silly evidence-free CTs here, you should not act all crybaby whining when someone else points out that it's silly evidence-free CT.

                            Sorry if that hurts your fee-fee's. (shrug)

                            In the end, reality always wins.

                            by Lenny Flank on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:58:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry you feel that way n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:54:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, there's evidence to back up the (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            eru

                            assertion that the stigmatization of the mentally interferes with the successful treatment of mental illness. Don't accuse other folks of basing conclusions on feelings because you are. I hope you have no idea of the evil you're supporting.

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            A comment that says, simply, "I'm sorry you feel that way" does not even remotely accuse anyone of anything.

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 04:53:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry, raptavio, but... (7+ / 0-)

                            Saying "I have long suspected that X" is not a claim of fact, it is a claim of opinion, and that is what lunachickie said in the post that started this chain.  No one should take "I have long suspected that Bill Clinton and the Pillsbury Doughboy are one and the same" as a statement of fact.  

                            Implied in a statement that you suspect something is that you have no or insufficient evidence. If you had sufficient evidence, you would no longer need to suspect it - you would have proof of it.

                            -------------------------
                            "[T]his is playing the long game, but it's about time we start playing the long game."
                            kos
                            ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

                            by Laughing Vergil on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:03:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks for understanding the native language! (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YucatanMan, Kevskos, aliasalias

                            It is much appreciated ...

                            Saying "I have long suspected that X" is not a claim of fact, it is a claim of opinion,

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:57:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, but it's still ableism, regardless of how (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            eru, raptavio

                            it was stated.

                          •  in your opinion! n/t (0+ / 0-)

                             

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:04:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have long suspected the sky was yellow. (0+ / 0-)

                            I suspect you're actually a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

                            Making assertions of fact and couching them in mealy-mouthed bull doesn't make them magically opinions.

                            Either drugs cause mass shootings or they don't. One of those is fact. The other is not.

                            And EVEN IF YOU ACCEPT the ludicrious assertion that you can make statements of fact into opinions just by couching them in such language, it still has the exact same effect of stigmatizing those with mental illness, who are not significantly more prone to violence against others than those without, and in particular those being treated for mental illness are no more prone than anyone else.

                            So, no. Fuck prejudice.

                            BTW: "I'm sorry but" are three words that never belong together.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:12:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In your opinion (0+ / 0-)
                            "I'm sorry but" are three words that never belong together.

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:28:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  True. (0+ / 0-)

                            That, at least, is opinion.

                            Good to see you're catching on.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:29:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  laughing (0+ / 0-)

                            Yeah, like I'm the one that needed to "catch on".

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 07:48:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  in other words, bow to my rightness or (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie

                        I will keep hammering on and on. Because persistence in repeating oneself is the only measure of value.

                        That sounds like trolling.

                        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:59:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No, trolling (0+ / 0-)

                          is dead threading two days later to resurrect a conversation that is long over and take asinine potshots.

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:11:30 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry, illness (as with most of life) happens (0+ / 0-)

                            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

                            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:28:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fair enough. (0+ / 0-)

                            I guess that's reasonable.

                            But srsly -- sometimes, it's best to let a dead thread go if life happens. I'm about as verbose as anyone on DKos, and I can manage that.

                            YMMV, of course.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:59:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  At this point you could say, "Ill do some research (11+ / 0-)

                      to see if my suspicion is correct," as an alternative to arguing something you just have a feeling about.

                      Or don't.

                      "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                      by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:56:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Um, there's evidence that stigma impedes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  eru, Tonedevil

                  treatment; there's no evidence to your claims. You're stigmatizing, and other folks are responding. You can't turn the tables and blame other people for your promotion of ableism. If you can't stand behind what you said, don't blame the folks that push back.

              •  it's wrong when the use of drugs (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lunachickie, Chi, AmyVVV, YucatanMan

                takes the place of thoughtful teaching of young people the skills of coexisting with other human beings.  But that takes time and thought and skill.  So make em take a pill.

                •  Sure. (4+ / 0-)

                  It's also wrong when the use of drugs is eschewed when said use would help facilitate the learning of those skills.

                  But regardless, that doesn't justify claiming the drugs are responsible for these cases of mass violence.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:05:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am impressed by the depth of your (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Chi, lunachickie, rbird, YucatanMan

                    passion about the use of drugs

                    •  I am passionate (7+ / 0-)

                      about pushing back against FUD about those who suffer from mental illness, and against those who would spread such FUD.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:31:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are doing great. (9+ / 0-)

                        The OP seem to be saying that we have mental illness-related violence because children are treated for mental illness.

                        I'd be interested to read a single case study to back up such a statement. Seems to me that untreated mental illness would be the much more likely cause.

                        Tell Warner Brothers Pictures that Rooney Mara is #NotYourTigerLily.

                        by ExpatGirl on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:49:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I and others are just as passionate about (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie, Kevskos

                        examining closely the use of drugs in conditions they were never developed for or tested for, and the spaghetti-against-the-wall approach to diagnosing and treating "mental illness" in children, who are naturally underdeveloped emotionally.  
                        Here is an example of my experience with "mental illness" which I firmly believe was brought on by excessive use of recreational drugs, since I knew him before and after.  Then psychotropic drugs were necessary. http://www.dailykos.com/...

                        •  Damn right (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Portia Elm, Kevskos, aliasalias
                          just as passionate about examining closely the use of drugs in conditions they were never developed for or tested for, and the spaghetti-against-the-wall approach to diagnosing and treating "mental illness" in children, who are naturally underdeveloped emotionally.

                           

                          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                          by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:57:50 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I hope you understand (0+ / 0-)

                          that what you're passionate about and what I'm passionate about are not incompatible in any respect.

                          What lunachickie did did no help to what you're passionate about and did harm to what I'm passionate about.

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:14:19 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  That's not really fair. (4+ / 0-)

                      If someone says the drugs are causing youth violence, or that they suspect it. It's not unreasonable to challenge that.

                      I mean that's an actionable position. If the psychotropic drugs are the cause, then maybe they should be restricted, just as I think guns should be restricted.

                      We all want to try to reduce or stop these violent events. The second post in the diary says the cause might be psychotropic drugs.

                      Everyone here clicked on the topic hopefully to better understand it, and hopefully to discuss solutions.

                      Some feel the suggestion that psychotropic drugs are the cause needs to be better supported in the context of trying to discuss solutions.

                      I know that's how I feel about it.

                      "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                      by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:43:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, it does not say this (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        aliasalias
                        The second post in the diary says the cause might be psychotropic drugs.
                        THIS is what it says:
                        I have long suspected that a lot of this youth violence is the direct result of dosing these developing human beings full of psychotropic drugs at a very early age.
                        Nowhere does this claim "This specific incident was caused by drugs". Nowhere.
                        Everyone here clicked on the topic hopefully to better understand it, and hopefully to discuss solutions.
                        When we don't "discuss solutions", does that mean we should lash out at others in such a shrill manner? I don't think so, do you?
                        Some feel the suggestion that psychotropic drugs are the cause needs to be better supported in the context of trying to discuss solutions.
                        And some feel that certain posters read way too much into some posts by some posters, for a number of reasons known only to them. And while I can't speak for all the posters in question, I will say that none of us is bound by any laws that say "we must discuss possible solutions in these diaries, or we must simply keep quiet".  Speaking for myself, I can assure you that will never be the case for me or anyone I happen to know here (personally or virtually).

                        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                        by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:12:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks for your caring for those of us that (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil, gramofsam1

                      desperately need drugs that keep us alive. How outrageous that anyone be passionate about helping the mentally ill live better lives.

                      •  How outrageous that (0+ / 0-)

                        our society can point to documented instance after documented instance of people being over-medicated in the USA for any number of documentable reasons. How outrageous that someone DARED to opine about that in passing.  

                        "Me-Too-ism" is probably a concept best left to the truly skilled. Some folks would opine that it looks overwrought or hyper-dramatic when done badly.  
                         

                        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                        by lunachickie on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:04:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  No amount of teaching will make a kid (6+ / 0-)

                  stop wanting to die.  I was suicidal and occasionally homicidal from the time I was 11.  I'll say it straight up, I wish to god somebody had paid enough attention to medicate me to the gills.  Things would have turned out much better.

                  We want to build cyber magicians!

                  by VelvetElvis on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:44:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  when kids, or anyone, are suicidal (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lunachickie

                    or homicidal, it is a symptom of feeling blocked and trapped.  That is what we have to help kids with.  This suck-it-up, University of Hard Knocks crap I grew up with did not work for me, but I survived by realizing how messed up and crazy it was.  Look at American culture these days--no wonder a lot of kids think they have nowhere to go.  We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.

                    •  You are the first to suggest those two ideas are (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil, eru, gramofsam1, DLWinMI

                      mutually exclusive.

                      We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.
                      Children whose parents take them to a doctor when they're having a mental health problem aren't loved and included?

                      Children whose parents make the anguished decision that their child is not as perfect as they had hoped, and may need medications to be okay aren't loved and included?

                      This medication vs. love is your construct. No one really is making that argument. However, I appreciate that you are against it.  I am too.

                      "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                      by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:38:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  the doctor may not be loving and (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie

                        including them-however loving and inclusive the parents' intentions may be.  There is angst as part of growing up.  Doctors don't do angst, they do medicating.

                        •  You lost me. (0+ / 0-)

                          How does the kid end up in the doctor's office in your story?

                          "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                          by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:53:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Maybe a teacher suggested it? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Portia Elm, YucatanMan
                            "Junior's having a little trouble in school, Mom. Perhaps you should have him see a doctor?"
                            I've heard that one more than once.

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:14:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  let me tell you a little story about my own (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YucatanMan

                            angst in high school.  I went to a teacher I mistakenly trusted and told him I was worried about what I would do after high school, actually seeking some guidance about college.  This was in the 60's.  I was depressed because I thought I would not be able to go to college to continue studying music.  This paragon sent me to the school psychologist.  The psychologist told me I needed an older man who would put up with me, (looking at my legs).  Now that's considered harassment, so they hand out drugs.  Never mind, little lady.  Run along and get married and have kids or be a receptionist.  Many variations on this theme.  We need to listen and support.  The vast majority of children are not dangerous, they just want to do something with their lives.

                          •  I'm not sure which one of us needs ADD meds ; ) (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DLWinMI

                            But I'm having trouble understanding this :

                            We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.
                            I took that "We" who need to love and include children to be society: parents, teachers, therapists and, yes, I guess doctors.

                            I would think we both agree that the doctor's office is the last stop for parents, teachers, and therapists who, we both agree should be the ones who have tried to love and include the child they are caring for as you suggest.

                            If/when the love and inclusion isn't working, a doctor is consulted, but, but,

                            Doctors don't do angst, they do medicating.
                            I'll put aside this blanket statement about a vast and diverse group of individuals, to ask, "How can the last solution that is attempted be the original cause of the problem?"

                            Doctor's medicating kids may not be the best solution, but it is hard to twist it around to be the cause of the child's problem.

                            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                            by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 04:52:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  wow, it's amazing to me (0+ / 0-)

                            that you assume that medication is what is being resorted to after all other avenues are exhausted.  And you put down our diverse perspectives to ADD--I have nothing more to say to you.

                          •  Even with this ; ) on the ADD line? It's humor! (0+ / 0-)

                            We're talking ABOUT meds fer cryin' out loud.

                            It's probably a good idea to just drop it though. We tried.

                            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                            by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:55:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're so concerned (0+ / 0-)

                            that you appear "reasonable"! How....refreshing.

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:05:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  WTF! Are you not aware that suicide pre-dates (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      eru, Tonedevil, gramofsam1

                      contemporary American culture?

                    •  that won't do crap (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gramofsam1

                      for somebody whose problem is faulty wiring between the ears

                      We want to build cyber magicians!

                      by VelvetElvis on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:12:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Hmm. I guess we can't have opinions or (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lunachickie

                hypotheses around here now. Jury proof for every idea!

                Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:58:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  When the idea (0+ / 0-)

                  is one that stigmatizes a group of people, yes. Some people call it "ableism" but the word seems clumsy and trite to me. I call it prejudice, and marginalization of those with mental illness.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:10:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Outside of (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Prognosticator, Chi

            this blog, it's not real hard to find a large cross-section of people who are just as suspicious of our for-profit medical system to this end. And they further don't find it to be the least bit abhorrent or stigmatizing when someone actually dares to give voice to such a thing, regardless of the types of drugs being discussed.
             

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:11:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Big Pharma dodge (6+ / 0-)

              doesn't justify every damn fool thing that comes out of someone's mouth.

              If you're going to blame -- even by voicing an unfounded "suspicion" -- that pharmaceuticals are to blame for mass violence at schools, then you'd better fucking have some evidence to back it up. And saying "well other people share that suspicion" is not evidence; it's just FUD.

              Otherwise, yeah, it is abhorrent, it is stigmatizing, and it is doing much harm and no good.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:14:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry (6+ / 0-)

                I read the original comment and I just don't get what your getting from it.

                I don't think anyone can honestly say that mental health meds don't help people.  They do.  And I did not get from the the original comment that message.

                What I got, and I believe, that people using medications not meant for them can do harm - and that many times meds are prescribed to people who don't need them.

                I guess I'm trying to understand the outrage.

                •  Everyone keeps saying this. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gramofsam1, DLWinMI
                  Meds are prescribed to people who don't need them.
                  I don't understand how you think this happens. The person who gets the meds prescribed thought they had a problem. They were convinced enough to call up a doctor and make an appointment and wait till the day of the appointment and show up and talk about what their problem is.

                  The doctor makes some offer to the patient about what meds are available and what they might do. Sure, maybe it's a little bit like throwing spaghetti to see if it sticks, no one has a crystal ball. Somehow, the doctor and patient reach an agreement that a medicine is appropriate.

                  The patient walks out, stays convinced of this plan long enough to go to a pharmacy and purchase a bottle of pills, then still is committed to the plan every day that they take the pill. They must be convinced it's helped since they continue taking it, or as certainly also occurs, don't.

                  And yet, somewhere on the internet, a voice types that the medicine prescribed was not really needed. And this is based on. . .?

                  "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                  by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:28:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Opinions have consequences (14+ / 0-)

          Ask Jenny McCarthy.

          For all we know it could be that there are other causes and drugs are actually keeping this problem from being worse than it is.

          Are you willing to be responsible for the additional deaths that occur if drugs are curtailed?

        •  It's my suspicion that you make claims (10+ / 0-)

          without any evidence to support them. But that doesn't stop you from doing it.

        •  I bet it's part of the Big Pharma Conspiracy (10+ / 0-)

          Right?

          (sigh)

          Sometimes the silly tinfoil-hattery around here just makes me shake my head.

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:03:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Luna (5+ / 0-)

          we simply don't know enough right now. This is pure speculation unless you know something we don't. If so, got a link? I, for one, would like to know more about how this happened.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:43:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  ....and I have no facts to back this.... (10+ / 0-)

        but this event happened at the school system attended by my partner's two grand daughters.  Fortunately they were in the elementary and middle schools and not the high school, although all are on the same campus.  From all reports so far, the teachers and staff handled this awful incident very well under the circumstances, and so, apparently did the emergency responders, EMTs and doctors and nurses at area hospitals.

        Press conferences at two hospitals both included statements by doctors that the quick action of the EMTs to stabilize the most seriously wounded of the students and prep them enroute, helped save their lives.  There are two major hospitals here in my home town which received several students....one has a recently accredited trauma center.  They reported that had the students had to be transported further into Pittsburgh, they might not have survived that extra time.

        That given, there was at least one report that one of the victims today had received a threatening phone call at his home last night.  Whether he knew who called was not indicated and again, this is just a report and not verified.

        However, local TV stations have showed admirable restraint in NOT going with unverified information, up to and including not releasing the name of the attacker...reportedly a 16 year old student....until it has come from the police.  It seems clear that with today's Twitter, Facebook, e-mail and texting society, they would have had a likely name very early on since students were calling and texting from the scene soon after it happened.  Again, to their credit, the TV stations did NOT leap to post such information themselves.

        However, I am guessing that the student who did the stabbing may well have had something happen to him which provoked this attack.  I don't say it justifies it if true, but it could be a cause, and my most likely guess is that it was some form of physical or mental bullying.

        Why he attacked so many will simply have to wait until investigators can get at the full story....intense rage would seem very likely, but again, what caused it remains to be seen.

        And meanwhile, as ever-reliable Charlie Pierce at Esquire reports the story had hardly reached the airwaves before the predictable happened.....a wave of gun-nut postings bewailing the fact that any school should be a gun-free zone and opining that it wouldn't have happened or fewer would have been hurt if guns were on campus.

        And I am sure we all know just how valuable gunfire by shaky-handed part-time school security guards would be in a hallway full of panicked teen agers and no clear idea as to who is attacking and who is being attacked.

        But hell.....fantasies of heroism never fade in the minds of gun nuts....and it always seems to be THEM serving as the heros.....but they never are....and never will be.

        Free markets would be a great idea, if markets were actually free.

        by dweb8231 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:44:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um, thank you for the commentary? (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think you intended it to be in response to this thread, but thanks?

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:50:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  One would think this was way more important (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rbird

          than the folderol about my piddly little opinion upthread,  

          the story had hardly reached the airwaves before the predictable happened.....a wave of gun-nut postings bewailing the fact that any school should be a gun-free zone and opining that it wouldn't have happened or fewer would have been hurt if guns were on campus.
          Or worse, that there's no reason to apply additional common-sense restrictions on guns, because
          Lookit what some kid did with some knives! Are we gonna ban knives now, too?
          Buncha jagoffs...they'll pounce on this shit, guaranteed. Wonderful.

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:54:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's not (7+ / 0-)

        fear mongering to suggest that many times meds are over prescribed.

        This doesn't happen with mental health meds, it happens with all meds.  

        You feel sick?  Here's some antibiotics.

        You feel a little nervous?  Here's some anti depressants.

        Tummy a little bubbly?  Here's some anti acid drugs.

        I think we have gotten lazy with the prescription drugs.  Many doctors, instead of doing due diligence to find out what could help just write a prescription.

        •  It's not fear mongering (5+ / 0-)

          to suggest that drugs are overprescribed.

          It certainly IS fearmongering to claim that this overprescription is responsible for mass violence in schools.

          I would hope you'd agree.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:04:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't really (4+ / 0-)

            disagree

            I just don't understand the extreme reaction to the comment.

            I didn't read the comment as saying that the drugs were unnecessary and didn't help anyone - a la Scientology's "all drugs are evil"! line of thinking.

            Just that maybe people who don't need them were being put on them and it's probably not a good idea to alter the brain chemistry of someone who doesn't need it.

            •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rbird, YucatanMan
              maybe people who don't need them were being put on them and it's probably not a good idea to alter the brain chemistry of someone who doesn't need it.
              But of course, different people read different things into comments here.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:26:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It's this simple: (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              samanthab, eru, gramofsam1

              If someone suggests that these drugs cause mass violence, one is doing a number of things.

              One, one stigmatizes those using those drugs as unstable, dangerous, untrustworthy -- in so doing, potentially exacerbating the real problems for which they are using the drugs in the first place, ironically enough.

              Two, by casting FUD, one discourages people who can really benefit from those drugs from considering them as part of treatment for their problems, which denies them options which might save them from problems potentially as severe as suicidal depression. In short, discouraging some people from treatment which might literally save their lives.

              Three, by misplacing the focus on these drugs, focus is turned away from the real causes of these terrible tragedies and therefore the search for real solutions to these problems.

              Points one and two are why I push back hard when I see instances of this. I really despise when people with mental illness are stigmatized in this way, and their available treatment options are likewise stigmatized.

              Antibiotics are overprescribed too; I don't see anyone suggesting those with too many antibiotics are potential mass murderers.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:28:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Well you left out the part about the drugs causing (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              samanthab, gramofsam1

              violent rampages. LOL.

              That's what people are having an extreme reaction to:

              a lot of this youth violence is the direct result
              Just that part, okay?

              "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

              by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:47:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And??? (0+ / 0-)

                One more time--I didn't say it did.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:15:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  There are drugs with violent behavior... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YucatanMan, lunachickie

                ...as a side effect.

                From Time...

                ...certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.

                A new study from the Institute for Safe Medication Practices published in the journal PloS One and based on data from the FDA’s Adverse Event Reporting System has identified 31 drugs that are disproportionately linked with reports of violent behavior towards others.

                ....

                Atomoxetine (Strattera) Used to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), Strattera affects the neurotransmitter noradrenaline and is 9 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to the average medication.

                ....

                Amphetamines: (Various) Amphetamines are used to treat ADHD and affect the brain’s dopamine and noradrenaline systems. They are 9.6 times more likely to be linked to violence, compared to other drugs.

                Paroxetine (Paxil) An SSRI antidepressant, Paxil is also linked with more severe withdrawal symptoms and a greater risk of birth defects compared to other medications in that class. It is 10.3 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs.

                http://healthland.time.com/...

                From the root journal article's abstract...
                We identified 1527 cases of violence disproportionally reported for 31 drugs. Primary suspect drugs included varenicline (an aid to smoking cessation), 11 antidepressants, 6 sedative/hypnotics and 3 drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. The evidence of an association was weaker and mixed for antipsychotic drugs and absent for all but 1 anticonvulsant/mood stabilizer. Two or fewer violence cases were reported for 435/484 (84.7%) of all evaluable drugs suggesting that an association with this adverse event is unlikely for these drugs.
                http://www.plosone.org/...
                I think this has some relevance to the heated is-so/is-not discussion under way.  I found this article after about a minute's search.  It took a little longer because of a great deal of Scientology nonsense coughed up in the same search.

                Fuck it, guys. Learn to use the internet. That's all I've got to say on this matter.

                Join Essa in a revolt against the gods. Continue the fight, Causality.

                by rbird on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:43:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  she hedged enough. not a statement of fact, but (0+ / 0-)

        of opinion.

        I agree with your take on that opinion but hey, it's a free world.

        This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

        by mallyroyal on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:08:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I said above -- (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          samanthab, eru

          you don't get to make a claim of fact and call it an opinion.

          Drugs either cause school violence or they don't. That's fact.

          "In my opinion, the sky is yellow" is not a statement of opinion, regardless of whether I call it such.

          Also, labeling such a statement "opinion" doesn't mean its pernicious effects are lessened.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:14:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How about a "maybe" or "sometimes" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan, lunachickie

            Search results for this topic have too few reliable sources and too many anecdotes for any conclusion, at least in the first few pages of results.  Several school shooters have been on ADHD meds, but does that mean anything? I don't know.

            One the other hand, as I pointed out in an acerbic post above, certain meds ARE LINKED to violent behavior, including several used for ADHD treatment.

            So at least the possibility exists that a school shooting or other violent event is linked to use of certain specific medications.

            Never say never when humans and psychoactive drugs are involved.

            This is all I have to say on the matter.

            Join Essa in a revolt against the gods. Continue the fight, Causality.

            by rbird on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:55:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're offering (0+ / 0-)

              a version of argumentem ad ignorantiam.

              You can't say it DOESN'T, you claim, therefore it's OK to say it does.

              No. The null hypothesis is the negative. And if you're going to push the crackpot theory that everyone taking medication for ADHD is a potential spree killer, you'd better have some solid evidence. Because otherwise you're further stigmatizing the already stigmatized.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:05:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  NO ONE is REQUIRED (0+ / 0-)

                to source their opinion.

                Particularly when you seem to authoritatively insist upon it, repeatedly, acting as if somehow, you're in charge here.
                Feel free to keep trying! But if you're going to do so, I am going to ask you one more time to stop lying about it:

                And if you're going to push the crackpot theory that everyone taking medication for ADHD is a potential spree killer

                Nobody did that.

                You opine otherwise, and you're certainly entitled. You are, like me, just another denizen of a blog on the Internet. That being the case, it would do you well to keep in mind that none of us are required to answer to you, do your bidding or otherwise respect your POV.

                We are free to do so if we desire. Period.

                 

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:24:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan

        I've experienced mental health care in this country. I assure you their only interest is control. Usually through sedation.

        •  The moment you (0+ / 0-)

          think of the thousands and thousands of individual mental health care providers as a single force with a single mind, you lose.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:07:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I heard you have been very busy. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SouthernLiberalinMD

            How nice of you to take time out of your schedule to try and get my attention.

          •  Perhaps it's not so much a question of (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan

            the people as of the method(s) of mental health treatment and their underlying assumptions that are to a large extent unified and directed toward control.

            I have a somewhat different view of it than Horace's but feel that your rebuttal of him underestimates his intelligence. Obviously he doesn't believe that everyone who gets an MSW or a Psych degree is part of a hive mind.

            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 06:49:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Intelligent people (0+ / 0-)

              can believe stupid things.

              I don't believe vaguely conspiratorial assertions deserve gentle rebukes -- and certainly, HB3 has never trifled with being gentle in disagreeing with me.

              I've said before I believe HB3 is intelligent and thoughtful. But he sometimes says stupid things -- such as whinging that I was getting his attention when he was actually the one who initiated the conversation -- a very petty rebuttal which you seemed to think was clever. shrug

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:04:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Horace says many things, (0+ / 0-)

                I don't always agree, but I can see his point when I don't more often than not.  I wouldn't clasify any of them as saying stupid things.

                There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

                by Drewid on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 12:55:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't give the belief (0+ / 0-)

                  that the entire psychiatric profession exists with malicious purpose to be any more intelligent when said by someone whose intelligence I respect than when it's said by Tom Cruise.

                  Or less pernicious. There's real harm in persuading people the field is dangerous; the mentally ill who could use mental healthcare don't seek it.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:10:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I really think The Rational Hatter has a good (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        grasp on this. Rational, in fact.

        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:45:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  TIMMY!!!!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        And the Lords of the Underworld! Darkness fills my heart with pain!

        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:48:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You know, I was diagnosed with ADHD (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        albeit a borderline case, used drugs for a while until it turned out there was a bad interaction with another drug I was taking, and I agree with luna--there's way, way too many kids being prescribed this stuff, often simply because adults don't want to take the time to deal with them. Either with their actual problems, or just with their being kids instead of quiet little rule-obeying automatons.

        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:54:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can believe that. (0+ / 0-)

          I don't take issue with that, though I find the sentiment to be oversimplified at best and wrong at worst.

          When you leap from that to "this is why school shootings happen", however....

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:09:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I can count two family members (0+ / 0-)

          Fortunately, my brother put a stop to this shit quickly. He yanked both his kids out of the idiot school district that insisted he must medicate his young children or get a diagnosis saying they were "mentally healthy" before they could return to school. He worked three jobs to put both of them through private school.

          They never took drugs after that, and there was not a fucking thing wrong with them. Not. a. Fucking. Thing. Nothing other than they needed more educational stimulus than they were getting at the time, and that does not--does not--require medication.

          Making note of this in no way means that I "stigmatize" children who have legitimate issues, get properly diagnosed, and prescribed medication consistent with that diagnosis. And I think that's real apparent to anyone who chose to read the fucking words on the page here. Thanks for your input SLiM!

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:37:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Youth Violence Has Been Steadily Declining... (14+ / 0-)

      ...for years. I'm not sure the same can be said of "dosing developing human beings full of psychotropic drugs."

    •  I'd say it's the other way around (6+ / 0-)

      They'd be less likely to do shit like this if they had had their mental health problems properly treated.

      Source: I grew up with untreated mental health problems and was inches away from doing something like this myself at that age.

      We want to build cyber magicians!

      by VelvetElvis on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:41:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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