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  •  We can both be right (5+ / 0-)

    on the twin points of drugs' value and their misuse, or even overuse.

    But we can't both be right on the question of whether or not it's appropriate to blame pharmceuticals for mass violence at schools without any evidence.

    So, no, this isn't a "you're both right" situation.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:16:06 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  If you're so worried about "stigma" (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mikejay611, Portia Elm, Chi, Kevskos

      then why don't you simply stop calling attention to this thread?  You've made your point abundantly clear several times now.

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:19:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please, (8+ / 0-)

        heap another disingenuous argument on top of your disingenuous arguments.

        No, I'm all too happy to call attention to the fact that your attempts to tie psychiatric medication to mass violence are without evidence, without support, and without value -- that other people seeing these Scientologist-worthy attempts to create FUD will recognize them for what they are.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:22:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please stop belaboring the point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Portia Elm

          raptavio. At this point, it makes less sense to go on and on about my little comment and a metric fuckton more sense to figure out WTF we're going to do to ward off the fucking gun lobby. I can hear them now...

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:28:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  psst -- (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            samddobermann, samanthab, eru, gramofsam1

            you want me to stop belaboring the point? Stop belaboring the point. Or better still, walk back your pernicious claim blaming these drugs for this school violence.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:48:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Psst (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Portia Elm, rbird, Kevskos

              Move on, raptavio--everyone else seems to have done so.

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:56:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Is that so? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                samanthab

                Then why are you here?

                And why can't you admit your claim is without evidence or support?

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:03:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't have to admit anything (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Portia Elm

                  about my own opinion. Take what you want and leave the rest.

                  I've moved on to other parts of this discussion. You should think about doing the same.

                  This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                  by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:05:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's not your opinion. (5+ / 0-)

                    You are making a claim of fact, not opinion.

                    You don't get to call it your opinion because your claim of fact is unsupported.

                    Well, rather, you do get to, but that, too, is disingenuous.

                    Either drugs cause school violence or they don't. It is either factual they do, or it is factual they don't.

                    To call it opinion is a dodge to avoid supporting your claims of fact.

                    And if you'd moved on, you wouldn't still be posting.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:07:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I never claimed it was "fact". (0+ / 0-)

                      How many times do I have to say that before you're satisfied?  

                      I do not need your permission to post here. I would appreciate it--and I'm sure many others would as well, at this late stage of the discussion--if you would simply let this go.  

                      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                      by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:14:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You have had the power (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        samddobermann, samanthab, eru

                        to end this at any time -- just stop posting about it.

                        As long as you continue to post about it and hedge, I'm happy to pound your continued disingenuous arguments.

                        Such as trying to call your assertions "opinions" when they are about matters of fact, not opinion. I don't care whether you say "I'm not calling it fact" -- that's just a dodge.

                        Such as your "suspicion" -- which you can't even admit is completely unfounded -- that drugs are responsible for school violence.

                        And such as your complete denial that making such claims, even in the form of groundless "suspicions", do harm in the form of spreading FUD and creating stigma.

                        So you want me to let it go? Stop giving me the same disingenuous fodder to keep holding onto. Or better yet, retract your claims or admit they're completely groundless.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:20:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I am soooo tired of this shit . . . . (8+ / 0-)

                        Why in hell should anyone CARE about your uninformed opinion? Especially if you have zero evidence or data of any sort whatever to back it up?

                        We on the left take justifiable pride in our tolerance. We openly advocate that EVERYONE should be treated equally, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else.

                        BUT . . .

                        When we attempt to apply that same "tolerance" to matters of SCIENCE (and "do medical drugs cause violence in kids?" is a matter of SCIENCE, not of opinion), we are utterly absolutely inexcusably wrong. Science is not a democracy. Science cares about facts and evidence, not about opinions. In science, all opinions are NOT equally valid or equally worthy of consideration, and no one can demand that they have a "right" to have their opinions given equal consideration. In science, there are only two kinds of opinions---those which conform to demonstrable facts and data, and those which DON'T. And we refer to the ones which don't as  . . . WRONG. Period. End of debate.

                        And if you post your silly evidence-free CTs here, you should not act all crybaby whining when someone else points out that it's silly evidence-free CT.

                        Sorry if that hurts your fee-fee's. (shrug)

                        In the end, reality always wins.

                        by Lenny Flank on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:58:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm sorry, raptavio, but... (7+ / 0-)

                      Saying "I have long suspected that X" is not a claim of fact, it is a claim of opinion, and that is what lunachickie said in the post that started this chain.  No one should take "I have long suspected that Bill Clinton and the Pillsbury Doughboy are one and the same" as a statement of fact.  

                      Implied in a statement that you suspect something is that you have no or insufficient evidence. If you had sufficient evidence, you would no longer need to suspect it - you would have proof of it.

                      -------------------------
                      "[T]his is playing the long game, but it's about time we start playing the long game."
                      kos
                      ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

                      by Laughing Vergil on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:03:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  in other words, bow to my rightness or (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie

              I will keep hammering on and on. Because persistence in repeating oneself is the only measure of value.

              That sounds like trolling.

              Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:59:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, trolling (0+ / 0-)

                is dead threading two days later to resurrect a conversation that is long over and take asinine potshots.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:11:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sorry, illness (as with most of life) happens (0+ / 0-)

                  Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

                  by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:28:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Fair enough. (0+ / 0-)

                    I guess that's reasonable.

                    But srsly -- sometimes, it's best to let a dead thread go if life happens. I'm about as verbose as anyone on DKos, and I can manage that.

                    YMMV, of course.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:59:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  At this point you could say, "Ill do some research (11+ / 0-)

            to see if my suspicion is correct," as an alternative to arguing something you just have a feeling about.

            Or don't.

            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

            by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 12:56:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Um, there's evidence that stigma impedes (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        eru, Tonedevil

        treatment; there's no evidence to your claims. You're stigmatizing, and other folks are responding. You can't turn the tables and blame other people for your promotion of ableism. If you can't stand behind what you said, don't blame the folks that push back.

    •  it's wrong when the use of drugs (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, Chi, AmyVVV, YucatanMan

      takes the place of thoughtful teaching of young people the skills of coexisting with other human beings.  But that takes time and thought and skill.  So make em take a pill.

      •  Sure. (4+ / 0-)

        It's also wrong when the use of drugs is eschewed when said use would help facilitate the learning of those skills.

        But regardless, that doesn't justify claiming the drugs are responsible for these cases of mass violence.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:05:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am impressed by the depth of your (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chi, lunachickie, rbird, YucatanMan

          passion about the use of drugs

          •  I am passionate (7+ / 0-)

            about pushing back against FUD about those who suffer from mental illness, and against those who would spread such FUD.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:31:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are doing great. (9+ / 0-)

              The OP seem to be saying that we have mental illness-related violence because children are treated for mental illness.

              I'd be interested to read a single case study to back up such a statement. Seems to me that untreated mental illness would be the much more likely cause.

              Tell Warner Brothers Pictures that Rooney Mara is #NotYourTigerLily.

              by ExpatGirl on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:49:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I and others are just as passionate about (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie, Kevskos

              examining closely the use of drugs in conditions they were never developed for or tested for, and the spaghetti-against-the-wall approach to diagnosing and treating "mental illness" in children, who are naturally underdeveloped emotionally.  
              Here is an example of my experience with "mental illness" which I firmly believe was brought on by excessive use of recreational drugs, since I knew him before and after.  Then psychotropic drugs were necessary. http://www.dailykos.com/...

              •  Damn right (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Portia Elm, Kevskos, aliasalias
                just as passionate about examining closely the use of drugs in conditions they were never developed for or tested for, and the spaghetti-against-the-wall approach to diagnosing and treating "mental illness" in children, who are naturally underdeveloped emotionally.

                 

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:57:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I hope you understand (0+ / 0-)

                that what you're passionate about and what I'm passionate about are not incompatible in any respect.

                What lunachickie did did no help to what you're passionate about and did harm to what I'm passionate about.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:14:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  That's not really fair. (4+ / 0-)

            If someone says the drugs are causing youth violence, or that they suspect it. It's not unreasonable to challenge that.

            I mean that's an actionable position. If the psychotropic drugs are the cause, then maybe they should be restricted, just as I think guns should be restricted.

            We all want to try to reduce or stop these violent events. The second post in the diary says the cause might be psychotropic drugs.

            Everyone here clicked on the topic hopefully to better understand it, and hopefully to discuss solutions.

            Some feel the suggestion that psychotropic drugs are the cause needs to be better supported in the context of trying to discuss solutions.

            I know that's how I feel about it.

            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

            by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:43:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, it does not say this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aliasalias
              The second post in the diary says the cause might be psychotropic drugs.
              THIS is what it says:
              I have long suspected that a lot of this youth violence is the direct result of dosing these developing human beings full of psychotropic drugs at a very early age.
              Nowhere does this claim "This specific incident was caused by drugs". Nowhere.
              Everyone here clicked on the topic hopefully to better understand it, and hopefully to discuss solutions.
              When we don't "discuss solutions", does that mean we should lash out at others in such a shrill manner? I don't think so, do you?
              Some feel the suggestion that psychotropic drugs are the cause needs to be better supported in the context of trying to discuss solutions.
              And some feel that certain posters read way too much into some posts by some posters, for a number of reasons known only to them. And while I can't speak for all the posters in question, I will say that none of us is bound by any laws that say "we must discuss possible solutions in these diaries, or we must simply keep quiet".  Speaking for myself, I can assure you that will never be the case for me or anyone I happen to know here (personally or virtually).

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:12:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for your caring for those of us that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, gramofsam1

            desperately need drugs that keep us alive. How outrageous that anyone be passionate about helping the mentally ill live better lives.

            •  How outrageous that (0+ / 0-)

              our society can point to documented instance after documented instance of people being over-medicated in the USA for any number of documentable reasons. How outrageous that someone DARED to opine about that in passing.  

              "Me-Too-ism" is probably a concept best left to the truly skilled. Some folks would opine that it looks overwrought or hyper-dramatic when done badly.  
               

              This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

              by lunachickie on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:04:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  No amount of teaching will make a kid (6+ / 0-)

        stop wanting to die.  I was suicidal and occasionally homicidal from the time I was 11.  I'll say it straight up, I wish to god somebody had paid enough attention to medicate me to the gills.  Things would have turned out much better.

        We want to build cyber magicians!

        by VelvetElvis on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 01:44:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  when kids, or anyone, are suicidal (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie

          or homicidal, it is a symptom of feeling blocked and trapped.  That is what we have to help kids with.  This suck-it-up, University of Hard Knocks crap I grew up with did not work for me, but I survived by realizing how messed up and crazy it was.  Look at American culture these days--no wonder a lot of kids think they have nowhere to go.  We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.

          •  You are the first to suggest those two ideas are (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, eru, gramofsam1, DLWinMI

            mutually exclusive.

            We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.
            Children whose parents take them to a doctor when they're having a mental health problem aren't loved and included?

            Children whose parents make the anguished decision that their child is not as perfect as they had hoped, and may need medications to be okay aren't loved and included?

            This medication vs. love is your construct. No one really is making that argument. However, I appreciate that you are against it.  I am too.

            "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

            by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:38:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the doctor may not be loving and (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie

              including them-however loving and inclusive the parents' intentions may be.  There is angst as part of growing up.  Doctors don't do angst, they do medicating.

              •  You lost me. (0+ / 0-)

                How does the kid end up in the doctor's office in your story?

                "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 02:53:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Maybe a teacher suggested it? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Portia Elm, YucatanMan
                  "Junior's having a little trouble in school, Mom. Perhaps you should have him see a doctor?"
                  I've heard that one more than once.

                  This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                  by lunachickie on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 03:14:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  let me tell you a little story about my own (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  YucatanMan

                  angst in high school.  I went to a teacher I mistakenly trusted and told him I was worried about what I would do after high school, actually seeking some guidance about college.  This was in the 60's.  I was depressed because I thought I would not be able to go to college to continue studying music.  This paragon sent me to the school psychologist.  The psychologist told me I needed an older man who would put up with me, (looking at my legs).  Now that's considered harassment, so they hand out drugs.  Never mind, little lady.  Run along and get married and have kids or be a receptionist.  Many variations on this theme.  We need to listen and support.  The vast majority of children are not dangerous, they just want to do something with their lives.

                  •  I'm not sure which one of us needs ADD meds ; ) (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DLWinMI

                    But I'm having trouble understanding this :

                    We need to love them and include them, not drug the minds out of them.
                    I took that "We" who need to love and include children to be society: parents, teachers, therapists and, yes, I guess doctors.

                    I would think we both agree that the doctor's office is the last stop for parents, teachers, and therapists who, we both agree should be the ones who have tried to love and include the child they are caring for as you suggest.

                    If/when the love and inclusion isn't working, a doctor is consulted, but, but,

                    Doctors don't do angst, they do medicating.
                    I'll put aside this blanket statement about a vast and diverse group of individuals, to ask, "How can the last solution that is attempted be the original cause of the problem?"

                    Doctor's medicating kids may not be the best solution, but it is hard to twist it around to be the cause of the child's problem.

                    "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

                    by New Jersey Boy on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 04:52:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  WTF! Are you not aware that suicide pre-dates (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eru, Tonedevil, gramofsam1

            contemporary American culture?

          •  that won't do crap (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gramofsam1

            for somebody whose problem is faulty wiring between the ears

            We want to build cyber magicians!

            by VelvetElvis on Wed Apr 09, 2014 at 05:12:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Hmm. I guess we can't have opinions or (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie

      hypotheses around here now. Jury proof for every idea!

      Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:58:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When the idea (0+ / 0-)

        is one that stigmatizes a group of people, yes. Some people call it "ableism" but the word seems clumsy and trite to me. I call it prejudice, and marginalization of those with mental illness.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:10:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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