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  •  As patents expire on Round up and Glycophosphate (0+ / 0-)

    Resistance genes, and more "weeds" develop resistance, use is going to crash.

    Monstanto won't be pushing the seeds when any company that wants can make the herbicide.

    The bad news is, they're trying to get genes providing resistance to components of Agent Orange (Monsanto was a major producer of it, btw, and involved in covering up known dangers) approved.

    So, something about frying pans and fires.

    Is it "Gordon Gecko Democrat" week here at Dailykos?

    by JesseCW on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 04:20:54 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  in the interests of accuracy, it must be empasized (0+ / 0-)

      that:

      The bad news is, they're trying to get genes providing resistance to components of Agent Orange (Monsanto was a major producer of it, btw, and involved in covering up known dangers) approved.
      The toxic effects of Agent Orange were due to dioxins introduced during the old manufacturing process. The actual herbicide (known as 2,4-D) does not have the toxic effects that dioxin does. Monsanto is not now trying to use Agent Orange or dioxin on anything--it is trying to use 2,4-D which is not the same thing. Some of the more hysterical have taken to claiming that "Monsanto wants to spray Agent Orange on us!", which is simply not true, and is just attempting to use the emotional impact of the words "Agent Orange!" as a scare tactic. It is dishonest and deceptive, and we should not use it or tolerate others using it.

      And you are right about Roundup and glyphosates----once the weeds develop resistance to it, it becomes useless, and weeds have already been developing resistance to it since Roundup was used for decades before the GM-resistant crops even appeared. That, alas, is the eventual fate of ALL pesticides and antibiotics---they are only good for a limited  period of time until the target develops resistance to it, then they become completely useless. That is simple evolution in action, and it can never be stopped. In another decade or two, all the weeds will have resistance, and Roundup will disappear from the market, no matter what we or Monsanto do or don't do. Monsanto may be a big rich powerful corporation--but they can't stop evolution.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:14:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Monsanto is right now seeking approval for (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        forgore

        use of one of the components of Agent Orange.

        Monsanto in the past knowingly concealed information about the dangers of multiple chemicals it produced, from PCB's to Dioxins.

        This are cold hard facts, as much as clowns desperate to vigorously ride any fence they come across might try to pretend that they're not.

        None of us should tolerate right wingers trying to pose as "reasonable Liberals" when they assault statements of plain fact with labels like "hysterics".

        Those who use these tactics and those who enable them are equally responsible for most of the severe threats facing us today.

        Is it "Gordon Gecko Democrat" week here at Dailykos?

        by JesseCW on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:21:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  here is another cold hard fact: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nextstep

          2,4-D is not "Agent Orange", and it does not contain dioxin, which was the toxic component of Agent Orange.

          None of us should tolerate right wingers trying to pose as "reasonable Liberals"
          THAT is an accusation you had better back up with some evidence, or withdraw.  

          If you do neither, I will forward the matter to Elfling.  Kos has already made it clear that accusations of shilling are bannable offenses here.

          I am getting really fucking tired of the increasing number of CT kooks at DKos who shoot their mouths off with statements like this one without backing it up in anyway. It has become routine now for all the CTers to post accusations that people are paid Monsanto shills, or  trolls for Big Pharma, or work for TEPCO, or are NRA employees, or support the NSA, or whatever. It's silly, stupid, and dishonest.  It's just a way to delegitimize criticism and avoiding answering it or even reading it. It should not be tolerated here by anyone on any side of any issue.

          I'm fucking tired of seeing it. And it won't stop until Kos starts bojo'ing people for it.

          I've been with the environmental movement since most of us here were pooping their diapers. So you can take your idiotic accusation and shove it.

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:45:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Dow knew by 1964 (0+ / 0-)

        that the manufacturing process created dangerous levels of dioxin.  They informed the other manufacturers (including Monsanto) of this, and changed their process to reduce the levels, although I think no one else did.  (Link)

        The other catastrophe of using Agent Orange has nothing to do with its direct health impact, on US military personnel, enemy combatants, civilian bystanders, and all the wildlife exposed.  By killing off huge swaths of forest, the Ranch Hand operation caused massive and probably irreversible changes in the ecology of much of SE Asia.

        •  all true, but all also not relevant to my point. (0+ / 0-)

          No one here thinks Monsanto are angels. Monsanto are fucking bastards. Most of what they do is intolerable in a democracy.

          But even if Monsanto's CEO personally poisoned his dog with dioxin and buried it in his tomato garden to cover it up, that doesn't alter the simple fact that (1) 2,4-D is NOT "Agent Orange", (2) 2,4-D does NOT have dioxin (the dangerous part of Agent Orange) as a component, and (3) if we claim or imply otherwise, we are simply lying to people.

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 03:34:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There is probably another resistance mechanism (0+ / 0-)

        at work - because the gene conferring resistance (CP4 EPSPS) was cloned into the nuclear genome instead of the mitochondrial one, it is present in pollen and can be much more easily transferred to weeds surrounding grain crops as a result.

        •  ...this also results in trivially easy (0+ / 0-)

          contamination of NON-GMO crops with these genes, (i) preventing their sale as organic, and (ii) exposing the unsuspecting farmers to legal action from Monsanto if their crops are hybridized.

          •  I have always wondered why on earth Monsanto did (0+ / 0-)

            this in the first place. Surely they could have made the pollen sterile. That would eliminate the whole cross-fertilization problem--and also prevent Mother Nature from giving away their patented genes to anyone and everyone for free, which they seem to be so paranoid and tight-assed about.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 03:29:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My son told me in his biology class his professor (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ypochris

              taught them when this pollen with the patented pollen drifts off the farms where it is used onto the neighboring farms which did not use it, the patented DNA gets mixed into the seed stock of the neighboring farmers who then face lawsuits.

              I did not catch whether the law suits from Monsanto are in regard to he patented product they sell, or the seed stock, but the big ultimate problem is they can not use the seed stocks they have been cultivating and handing down for generations because they are now in patent violation.

              My son reported that some of this farmers now have no alternate source of seed stock and must buy from the corporation involved which I believe was Monsanto in this case.

              "Seriously, Folks, WTH?" - ("What the Heck? "h/t Joan McCarter, Seriously, Florida. WTF?)

              by HoundDog on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:07:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  he's right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                HoundDog

                Monsanto has claimed ownership rights over the gene itself (which I object to strongly--NOBODY should have any right to patent a natural product for private profit), and therefore claims the right to compensation from anyone who possesses their gene, no matter how they got it.

                Monsanto also forces people who use their seeds to sign a big long list of "thou shalt nots" regarding how the seeds are to be used--the biggest restriction being that the farmer CANNOT retain any of Monsanto's seed for planting next year. The farmers MUST buy a new supply of seeds from Monsanto for each planting season.

                That, I find intolerable. Once a person buys a product, the person who sold it should have NO right whatsoever to tell the purchaser what they can do with it.  It's like your TV dealer telling you what shows you can't watch, or your auto dealer telling you what parts of town you can't drive in.

                In the end, reality always wins.

                by Lenny Flank on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:39:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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