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View Diary: Obama & Syria: Lies and deception now institutionalized (126 comments)

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  •  I really do need a citation (7+ / 0-)

    for $5 billion provided to opposition organizations in Ukraine.  That is not credible.

    “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

    by ivorybill on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 01:48:03 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Listen to it direct from the horse's mouth (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bobdevo

      •  OK I listened to that (7+ / 0-)

        The US has spent $5 billion in Ukraine but:

        *  Since 1991 (you left that out)
        *  For all assistance, not just to support pro democracy organizations

        I'd remind you that the US wisely spent a great deal of money in the former Soviet Union including in Ukraine to get them to get rid of nuclear weapons and participate in non-proliferation.  What you don't consider here is that the price was a large aid and economic assistance package.

        An average of $217 million per year, including economic assistance, for one of the largest former Soviet republics, does not strike me as being all that much.  The actual amount spent on civil society organizations will be a tiny fraction of that.  The main US source for funding for civil society organizations focused on democracy building is the National Endowment for Democracy.  A quick google search shows that the actual amounts were mostly small grants of $30,000 or so - not billions.

        http://www.ned.org/...

        “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

        by ivorybill on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 04:25:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't leave anything out. The US has been (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lepanto, protectspice, corvo

          working at getting all the Warsaw Pact countries under the NATO umbrella since it was disbanded in 1991. Poland and the Ukraine were especially targeted.

          The main US source for funding for civil society organizations focused on democracy building is the National Endowment for Democracy.  A quick google search shows that the actual amounts were mostly small grants of $30,000 or so - not billions.
          Read the fine print. The grant descriptions in that link are from the 2013 NED Annual Report. How many millions on that one page for 2013?
          •  Yes, I did read the fine print (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fcvaguy

            There are not that many millions on that one page.  The overwhelming majority of grants are very small. My point stands.

            But I guess I'm rather more confused by your concern that diplomacy supporting Ukraine and Poland (!) membership in the EU is somehow a nefarious plot.  Perhaps you feel that bringing Poland under the NATO umbrella was a bad thing, or something resisted by the Poles?  I am confused by that.  I think that the overwhelming desire of the Poles was to join Europe and avoid Russian domination.  That is a bad thing?  Am I missing something? Are you honestly suggesting that it was a mistake to help Poland join the EU?  

            “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

            by ivorybill on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:04:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Dishonest comment, Claudius. (1+ / 0-)
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        fcvaguy

        I will remember this in reading your future comments.

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