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View Diary: Venezuela Under Fascist Attack -- with U.S. Help. (68 comments)

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  •  The protestors (9+ / 0-)

    are far right rich people who want their privilege back.  I suppose if the tea party protested here, you woukld support them too?  

    ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

    by Diane Gee on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:48:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I support the tea partier's right to protest. (4+ / 0-)

      It saddens me that you don't. Why the hell would I care about a bunch of morons that can't spell the word moron?

      •  I'm not sure Diane was referring (5+ / 0-)

        to supporting their right to protest.  I think we all support freedom of speech here. I think Diane objected to the Tea Party message.

        I think Diane was saying that just because they are "protesters" doesn't make them worthy of support.

      •  because they're a made-to-order (5+ / 0-)

        disinformed constituency working for the 1% and wall street. and if you are at all active on progressive/liberal/democratic issues they're the ones in the way- the ones who delay action on global warming and reforms we need and, for instance, why we have the ACA instead of single payer, and why we still have shit heads in congress trying to make women and brown and poor people second class citizens.

        Why the hell would I care about a bunch of morons that can't spell the word moron?
        and most of them are morons because morons on the left give 1200 coordinated radio stations a free speech free ride.

        This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

        by certainot on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:26:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  even those (deluded) people get to protest (0+ / 0-)

          if they want to. And if the Koch Brothers stop paying for their transportation and snacks, that's OK too.

          Who do you suggest make up a list of acceptable protest movements? Kos? Maduro? Darth Cheney?

          •  no one said they couldn't protest- but (0+ / 0-)

            their legitimacy as feedback to move democracy and elected representatives is given too much weight even by many on the left.

            what is seldom factored in, certainly not by trad media and usually by many on the left, is that they are the product of classic psyops the CIA would be proud of.

            the number of issues that large majorities of american public agree on that are derailed by the well disinformed talk radio base is pathetic.

            it's not about opinions on how a country should be run or who should be taxed what, etc., we have a major US political party that officially denies global warming is real.

            while minority rights need to be protected, that minority is the product of a well coordinated propaganda operation that only works because the left continues to ignore the talk radio monopoly working this country over for the 1%.

            This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

            by certainot on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:32:43 AM PDT

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    •  of course we would (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sky Net, DiesIrae

      it's called freedom of speech and assembly.

      The right to protest isn't limited to the poor.

      WTH are you talking about? Are you kidding me?

    •  Your logic escapes me (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DiesIrae, sviscusi, JeffSCinNY

      Just because you disagree with someone's views doesn't mean they're fascists.  They have the right to protest.  A genuine democracy could handle dissent without demonizing all who disagree with the government.

      Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

      by Sky Net on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:21:47 PM PDT

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      •  Right to Protest = Right to Burn Down Buildings? (10+ / 0-)

        The right-wing violence by a small minority in the streets of Venezuela is terrorism not the exercise of the right to free speech and assembly.  They are disrupting the lives of ordinary citizens in violation of their constitutional rights.  The Venezuelan government has the right -- and the duty -- to protect the rights of all its citizens.

        Convict the War Criminals, Surveilers and Fraudsters. Support universal health care, unions, WikiLeaks, Manning and Snowden. On Occupy Wall Street! Time for a totally new, democratic economic system. Turn the corporations into worker cooperatives!

        by Justina on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:07:46 PM PDT

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      •  protesters don't have the right to use violence (7+ / 0-)

        to overthrow the government. If that happens the government has to use force to maintain order and stability. Otherwise it would collapse.

        This is the sort of thing these "peaceful" protesters are engaging in:

        President Maduro has ordered the arrest of retired General Angel Vivas, who promoted the use of wire at blockades in order to “neutralise” people on motorbikes. One government supporter on a motorbike died by such a method last night.

        On 20 February Vivas tweeted “In order to neutralise criminal hordes on motorbikes, one must place nylon string or galvanised wire across the street, at a height of 1.2 metres”.

        He also tweeted, “to render armoured vehicles of the dictatorship useless, Molotov cocktails should be thrown under the motor, to burn belts and hoses, they become inoperative”.

        Other tweeters responded to his tweet about decapitating motorbike riders with further advice for the violent blockades, including suggesting that “a lot of oil be used in the streets, it is good for two things, they fall off, and it can set [things] alight. The collectives are the ones in the vehicles”.

        You said

        A genuine democracy could handle dissent without demonizing all who disagree with the government.

        So you are saying the US is not a genuine democracy?

        FBI documents just obtained by the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF) … reveal that from its inception, the FBI treated the Occupy movement as a potential criminal and terrorist threat … The PCJF has obtained heavily redacted documents showing that FBI offices and agents around the country were in high gear conducting surveillance against the movement even as early as August 2011, a month prior to the establishment of the OWS encampment in Zuccotti Park and other Occupy actions around the country.
        Looks like the US government demonized #Occupy from the very beginning.

        Many of the people criticizing the Venezuelan government's response to the protesters are the same people who defended the US crackdown on #Occupy. With a very small number of exceptions, the #Occupiers were peaceful and nonviolent. They were broken up and arrested for nothing more than demanding economic inequality. They were tear-gassed, thrown into jail without trial, spied on, beaten.

        The Venezuelan protesters are not demanding economic rights. They are using violence to force regime change because they can't win at the ballot box. They have no right to nullify a legitimate electoral process just because they don't like the result. And demands for regime change shouldn't be automatically conflated with demands for rights. You are not "oppressed" just because you don't like losing elections. If you throw Molotov cocktails at people and use wire to decapitate motorcyclists, and the government arrests you, they're not being "dictators"--they're doing their job, the job they were elected to do. They would be derelict in their duty if they didn't.

        I'm not going to argue whether Chavismo is or isn't the hope of humanity because it is utterly irrelevant to the larger point. Which is that governments have the right and the responsibility to stop violent insurrection and maintain social order by force, if need be.

        "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

        by limpidglass on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 06:32:29 PM PDT

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        •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mkor7, Galtisalie, NY brit expat

          for reiterating that not everything that the government interferes with are things that should be interfered with.
          Chili comes to mind first of all, but then I am of that generation. Our government was complicit in overthrowing Allende because he was leftist, and then supported Pinochet, one of the most rapacious dictators ever. We are fine with dictators as long as they're our dictators.

          "The 'Middle' is a crowded place - that is where the effective power is - the extreme right and left might annoy governments, but the middle terrifies them." Johnny Linehan

          by northsylvania on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 01:16:15 AM PDT

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    •  I have a friend in Venezuela. He's a working stiff (3+ / 0-)

      not a 1% and not likely to be. He says the crime level, kidnappings, robberies, burglaries, etc. is exploding, and that inflation is also exploding
      He said a resolution of the divisions in the country is not in sight.
      I don't think this can be chalked up to the 1% vs the saintly socialists. There is a lot of entrenched corruption and dysfunction. It didn't happen overnight.
      It may well be that the capitalists, oil corporations, the CIA are all involved in shenanigans to bring down the government, as they have such a history of doing just that over and over,  but there's more to the problem than that.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 05:28:02 PM PDT

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      •  Venezuela is an import-only country. (3+ / 0-)

        Chavez tried to develop local production/ manufacturing, but most food and everyday supplies are still imported.

        Those importers are the economically well-off, and dedicated to deposing the Maduro government.

        All they have to do is simply tighten the supply line and the economy suffers.

        As a reminder, the Maduro government is a democratically elected government. You may not like his speech patterns, his hair style, his skin color, but Maduro was democratically elected.

        If the opposition is really a genuine movement, why aren't they pursuing their efforts through democratic means? Why are they subverting the democratic system through violence?

        •  I'm fairly pissed off : (0+ / 0-)
          You may not like his speech patterns, his hair style, his skin color, but Maduro was democratically elected
          You have absolutely no right and no basis from what I wrote to hurl that insult at me.

          I think my comment makes clear that I have limited understanding of what's going on over there other than one credible (in my view) friend to the effect that the problems in Venezuela are not properly framed in such a simplistic way.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:34:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  this is proof (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NY brit expat

        that Venezuela is NOT a dictatorship nor a totalitarian regime.

        the crime level, kidnappings, robberies, burglaries, etc. is exploding
        Every self-respecting dictator takes care of problems like that.
        •  When even well-intentioned "socialist" (0+ / 0-)

          (or any other kind) takeovers, start to lose their grip, that's exactly what you see.
          There are some that would characterize the "social progress" character of Chavez' governance as cover for his keptocracy.
          It's entirely plausible to me that that could be true and that the oil companies, Wall Street, the CIA, etc. could be stimulating protests with agent provocateurs, etc. in order to grab the control of the country for themselves.

          There may be no good guys in this, except for the citizens who just want a stable, free country to live in.

          I don't have a side to support in this except for the view that the diary was implausibly simplistic about the good guy v bad guy narrative.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:43:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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