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View Diary: The Death of an Army of One (127 comments)

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  •  Doc 2 is wrong. he won't rec this diary & (16+ / 0-)

    doesn't support what we are trying to do here.

    The bottom line is this, the overall American suicide rate is unacceptably high because of a lack of mental health access created by the fact America is the only major industrialized nation on earth that doesn't have universal medical access as a right of citizenship and this means that American veterans like the general population are left with a lack of access to mental health counseling. Whereupon it should further be noted that the military veterans of other highly industrialized nations don't have to contend with these issues to the extent that American veterans do.

    Doc2 in his fancy cut and paste job has essentially summarized the darkness of the talking points of the powers that be who have been bought by a for profit medical system plain and simple. I don't at all condemn his comments, I welcome them and hope and invite our readers to join that discussion in the spirit of intellectual freedom.    

    You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

    by Democrats Ramshield on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 05:43:13 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  when someone presents (0+ / 0-)

      government suicide statistics, most would accept the math and not label it a "fancy cut and paste job". I provided links, to actual statistics. The math is what it is. By using phrases like "a veteran commits suicide every 22 minutes", you are spinning the actual data to make it sound more alarming. Why not just say that veteran suicides are 20-25% higher than the age and gender-adjusted general population?

      I don't disagree that suicide is a problem, but in this reality-based community we can accept the actual statistical facts soberly and not ridicule those who provide us with links to them.

      •  To doc 2 -I don't accept your whitewash govt stats (10+ / 0-)

        The government's failure on this issue isn't anything that we ought to support and you shouldn't either so please stop the whitewash of this completely preventable tragedy with false statistics.  

        Additionally, there's the reality that part of the darkness around this issue is whitewashing this completely preventable tragedy of military suicide into social acceptance with massaged statistics, that doesn't even take 20 states into account who don't report military suicide in their statistical databases as part of the studies that you wrongfully cited as being reliable, which they aren't. So please stop trying to mislead people with the propaganda campaign with the powers that be, while trolling for mojo.

        The truth is the suicide rate in America is a tragedy for civilians as well as victims of military suicide, which is made possible because America is the only major industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have universal medical access as a human right and this includes access to mental health care.

        You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

        by Democrats Ramshield on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 06:48:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Completely preventable"? How so? (0+ / 0-)

          Access to mental health treatment is no guarantee, though it may help in some cases.

          "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

          by Neuroptimalian on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:57:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  there is data on interventions (0+ / 0-)

            When a suicidal soldier tries to get help and encounters barriers it's often seen as a 'sign' that it's time to end it. Suicidal people engage in magical thinking, they look for 'signs' to tell them yes or no.  If we could pay for them to be deployed, we could pay for adequate mental health professionals and short term hospitalizations and the sorts of support and education and help that buys time.  Isn't it the least we should do?

            In these soldiers there is often MBD from too near explosions, and injuries that didn't kill them but knocked their brains around.  Proper diagnosis at least removes the 'shame' over mental confusion and depression.  

            Just a correct diagnosis and a feasible treatment plan is generally enough to buy time.  just people being nice about it.  

      •  Overall suicide rates are too high, vets' suicide (18+ / 0-)

        rates are way too high.  That's what your citations indicate to me.  The fact that vets' suicide rates are "only" 20-25% higher than general population rates for similar age and gender categories is not a reassuring statistic.

        The sole potential relevance of your comments is, apparently, to assert that things aren't quite as bad as the diarist alleges.  Nowhere do I see an acknowledgement that these statistics show a serious problem that is not being adequately addressed by either the VA or by society as a whole.   Perhaps you agree that it is a serious crisis, but I don't see you acknowledging that point.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 06:53:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  To RFK Lives - (Doc2's stats are false) (10+ / 0-)

          Doc2's statistics don't even take at least 20 states into account because they do not report veteran suicides. Therefore, the statistics he presents are really an establishment whitewash of the powers that be to justify their failure. Truth is, nobody knows how much veteran suicide statistics are. Doc2's position and statistics are incomplete at best and ridiculously so, which is the reason this diary didn't rely on those stats which are really an attempt of the government to whitewash its failure in the area of veteran suicide. Some people just don't want to see a diary like this reach its potential for whatever reasons. So all that a diarist like myself can do is to point to what we already know, which is a military suicide occurs almost every hour.

          Obviously if we had universal medical access in America, like every other major industrialized country in the world we would have mental health access to every one who needs it, civilians, as well as military at risk for suicide to get the help they needed. Why anyone would be against this, gives insight into the darkness that surrounds America on this issue that the diary refers to and that we will see manifest in comments again and again.

          You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

          by Democrats Ramshield on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 07:18:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually Doc2's stats do take that into account (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doc2

            since his numbers come directly from the study that gives the 22/day number:

            If this prevalence estimate is assumed to be constant across all U.S. states, an estimated 22 Veterans will have died from suicide each day in the calendar year 2010.
            http://www.va.gov/... . page 15. The previous 15 pages discuss the limitations of this estimate - it may be lower, it may be higher. 34 states have signed on to provide information for this study, but it's based on the first 21 reporting full numbers.

            The following page, 16, reports in detail about the demographics of veteran suicides, which can be legitimately compared to civilian ones. And should be, if we're going to deal with the reality of what causes veteran suicides. They're not all because of service.

            Before you get all huffy about my 'whitewashing' the foundation I work for has fielded suicide calls from vets for nearly 30 years. We've had satellite calls from Iraq and Afghanistan. We know, personally, just how bad this is. The last one that we have personal connections with was one my coworkers friends from the service who just killed himself, the day after he was discharged.

            My boss may not be the most eloquent man, but he tried to address this for the public months ago: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... .

            •  to nickrud - it is just not a good use of time (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thanatokephaloides, WakeUpNeo

              to try to argue this point with you further so I'm just going to turn the page on it and let our readers make up their own minds. I think you are doing people out there a real disservice by trying to move this diary off the rec list. I feel kind of sad about it, but that's life. I will say this if you are so convinced of your position why don't you go write a diary that is better than this one and try to get it on the rec list and keep it there.

              I see you have never written a diary but I really think you should give it a go.

              You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

              by Democrats Ramshield on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:08:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  why in the world (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                doc2, Deep Texan

                do you

                think you are doing people out there a real disservice by trying to move this diary off the rec list.
                It's a subject that is important, that needs discussing. What I was talking about is misrepresentation of some else's comments. If you're serious about this, you'd address my points rather than dismiss me as an enemy.
                •  Wow, what an allegation. (0+ / 0-)

                  How unnamed "people" can band together to move a diary off of the rec list is a mystery to me. Sounds a bit tin-foil hat-like to me.

                •  to nickrud - look you're a troll plain and simple (1+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WakeUpNeo
                  Hidden by:
                  Deep Texan

                  You don't want to see needy veterans get the mental health care they need, because you are a hateful person and it is not a good use of time to communicate with you further. I encourage others simply to ignore you, in the hopes you will go troll for mojo somewhere else. As for the rest of us we think that the veterans' suicide rate is already too high and shouldn't climb any higher, and we want to support efforts like this diary to help keep the public focus on this important issue.

                  You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

                  by Democrats Ramshield on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 10:22:03 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why are you on the attack? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Neuroptimalian

                    Nobody has said anything that deserves this sort of attack. You make a bunch of claims in a diary, and when a couple of people respectfully present or discuss the actual data you go berserk on them. We're progressives here, we're not supposed to be the jerks.

                  •  ok (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    doc2, Neuroptimalian

                    that is about as silly a thing as anything I've read here. Me, a troll. I don't want to see veterans get mental health care. Right. Even though I work with and for the man who created the primary mental health care system for combat veterans. I'm hateful, apparently because I try to correct a misunderstanding of someone else's comment. I'm totally supportive of keeping this issue in front of the public. But, I'm a troll because I dispute one important detail - the relative rates of suicides amongst age cohorts. An important point, since, by far, older vets commit suicide than younger ones, while your diary presumes the opposite. If people act upon your guidance they'll be spending their time where it will be least helpful.

                    •  The math is very clear. I'm (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Neuroptimalian

                      not sure why there is so much resistance to it. The bottom line is that 22 vets end their lives every day, and that is terrible. But if 17 of them would have done the same thing had they NOT been vets, that informs us that the fact that they are vets plays only a small role in driving their likelihood to commit suicide. Being an older male in America makes one quite likely to kill oneself, and most veterans are older males. There's just no disputing the numbers.

                  •  Seems to have been a drive-by donut. n/t (0+ / 0-)
                  •  Dem Ram - you realize that your defensiveness (0+ / 0-)

                    is not only inappropriate, but is making at least some readers (such as myself) question ALL your points?  
                    Doc2 gave some facts needed to put your statistics in a sensible context.  
                    You have gone all " Troll accuse" just for that.  
                    Makes me think you are a nut.

                    •  Ok but you can't read. (0+ / 0-)

                      If you could read you would have seen only 21 states report vet suicide. The stats are in fact as pointed out in this diary only 21 out of the 50 states even report veterans' suicides. Therefore logically these incomplete data sets cannot be relied upon as being complete and accurate, and for this reason this diary has done about ten times better in Face Book shares than it did in recommends on the Daily Kos, because people are able to see through lied up government incomplete statistics, the sole purpose is to whitewash the tragedy of military and veteran suicides in America. Where the overall rate of suicide in this society given the easy access to firearms  AND LACK OF MENTAL HEALTH CARE is unacceptably high by international standards, even for the general population. Over 1k readers at the Kos and on facebook  by their recommendations and Facebook shares support this diary in direct contradiction to your lied up view.

                      I THINK YOU'RE A HATEFUL PERSON and what you have done here fills many of us with sadness. Not just because what you've done is a clear attempt to dehumanize military and veteran suicide victims and their families from validation by reducing their tragedy to statistics, but then you suggest that anyone that doesn't accept these incomplete government statistics, must have a mental health problem themselves. The blind acceptance of government statistics historically has only ever been successfully dictated in totalitarian states. The very exercise of democracy itself gives us the right to challenge the government's statistics, the design of which is to whitewash this tragedy, while concurrently providing job protection for senior government administrators, and their continued big government paid out bonuses, who don't care that 29 states were not included in their statistics.

                      The darkness and hatred in people like yourself is plainly visible to the large number of people who have supported this diary, as it clearly beggars belief why anyone cogently speaking would attempt to troll a suicide prevention diary by posturing pontificating little people pretending to prostrate themselves in front of the altar of government statistics. The simple fact is that the overall American suicide rate is a preventable tragedy, and we cannot allow ourselves as people of conscience to be misled by comments such as yours.
                      :-(

                      You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

                      by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:45:13 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  I'll bet you have never been in the military eithe (0+ / 0-)
        •  I wrote (0+ / 0-)
          We have a societal suicide issue, and it is not exclusive to veterans.
          We all know that suicide is a terrible problem. It's just not a veteran's issue, as claimed here. It is an everyone issue. Vets kill themselves just a little more than non-vets kill themselves. Understanding a problem, through a thorough examination of the underlying numbers, is an essential first step at attacking an issue.
        •  I suspect that a properly designed study (0+ / 0-)

          ...would find a significantly larger difference between the suicide rate of veterans and a group of young people of similar demographics and health who did not enter the military.  

          •  Why in the name of all that is good are (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WakeUpNeo, Agathena

            we fighting over the actual, precise number ....because truth be known it could be higher....Accidental overdose, ???  Car wreck??????  There are probably accidents that are not accidents... One death is too many.
            One suicide is one too many.   I have dealt with issue time and time again about stats in it's exact number which no one has a real statistical handle on, just an educated guess because not all victims of gun violence, as a shooter, or domestic scene, or overdose gets reported as suicide... How about those and I know about those who just jump out in combat hoping to be killed... Or the old vet who quits taking his meds?  
            Let's not argue over 2 oe 22.. Let's try and do something about this disgrace !  

            We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

            by Vetwife on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 09:53:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Vetwife didn't rec this diary (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Agathena, Vetwife

              Though she gave a tip jar. This is representative of what happens when a diary is allowed to be trolled. I should like to point out to Vetwife that my intention in writing this diary was not to argue statistics with doc2. Doc2 essentially lied while trolling for mojo where he represented whitewashed government statistics as being representative of the country. When in fact truthfully it only represented stats from 21 states with no data being provided from 29 states.

              In addition to which he also lied about the fact that the study he cited said that the veterans' suicide represented over 50 year olds committing suicide at a slightly higher rate as well as other things, when compared to the general population. When multiple people called him on those assertions and others, he was unable to provide an exact page citation for his information. But it didn't matter because too many came to the conclusion that a suicide prevention diary had erupted into a pie fight and for whatever reason they wouldn't rec the diary fast enough to keep it on the rec list to help people gain information as related in this veteran and military suicide prevention diary. This is the type of tragedy that regularly repeats itself at the Kos with too many important diaries.

              So to Vetwife the bottom line was the intention of this diary was never for me to argue statistics, but rather to provide a suicide prevention information resource for the public, and to get as much exposure and support for that life saving undertaking as possible. Thank you for your comment.  

              You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

              by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 01:06:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You my dear were not the one arguing (0+ / 0-)

                The comment was directed to doc2.   As far as recording the diary.. I simply forgot... It was late when I commented..Sorry.

                Thank you for the diary Democrats as it is posted on my facebook and shared.... Good diary but the comment  of 1 or 100 to others was rather frustrating to me.. One is too many.

                We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                by Vetwife on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 10:12:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  RFK - you are wrong in criticizing doc2. (0+ / 0-)

          Sensible people will pay no attention to a statement such as "22 suicides per day" - that is out of context and meaningless.  Whether it is normal or not depends entirely on the size of the population at risk.  
          By providing context, doc2 makes the diary worth reading.  

          •  deh55 is using a troll's argument. Plain & simple. (0+ / 0-)

            The first troll's (doc2) argument presented are incomplete and in fact phony government statistics which purpose it is to dehumanize the military and veteran suicide tragedy by dehumanizing them as statistics instead of people. The second sophistry laden argument is that these people are of no substantial numerical consequence because they're not that much higher than the overall alleged American suicide rate. This again is a false lied up argument, because only 21 out of the 50 states report veteran suicide. So it is impossible to come to the reasonable conclusion that the government estimated statistics could reasonably be believed to be reliable.

            The trolls however such as doc2 and deh55 don't care about that, they are what is known in the Kos community are doing what is called trolling for mojo, where ratings points are given to them by people who haven't fully read this diary, who see the words government statistics and automatically want to believe that this diary is misrepresenting facts. The effect this has is that recommends by readers can be withheld so that this diary will fall off the reader's rec list, which means given the volume of diaries at the DKos, it basically will no longer be possible for it to be easily found. The fact that this diary has done 10 times better on FB shares already provides quantifiable evidence that this diary has been cravenly trolled at the DKos to kill support for it. A fact that seems beyond comprehension why anyone would want to troll a suicide prevention diary completely beggars belief!

            Yet these same people who want to do nothing substantial about military and veteran suicide rates in America want you to essentially believe their lies, for reasons known only to themselves, which are promulgated by bureaucrats in the US government based on incomplete statistical estimates, the design of which is to provide them with job security, continued pay out of bonuses. This is a scandal in America and these trolls do not deserve your support. Please do not be fooled or misled by incomplete phony government statistics. Also it should be noted that as a shocking number of suicides in America occur with firearms, that America both for military and civilian firearm deaths and suicides leads the world. This troubling fact is likewise being whitewashed! Because these firearm suicides, both military, veteran and civilian in America are shocking and unacceptably high.  

            You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

            by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:02:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  deh55 never gave this diary an honest reading. (0+ / 0-)

            You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

            by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:49:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Just because a Dem is in the WH (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan, cybrestrike

        it doesn't mean we should whitewash these problems.

        We're Dems. Let's make our leaders face the problem of veteran suicide and deal with it.  There's no honor in pretending its not a problem.

        Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

        by Betty Pinson on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 08:43:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey doc2 you have really flooded this board (0+ / 0-)

        I read through most of the posts here and for someone who claims not to be a troll you surely have flooded this message board. You claim you're not a troll but that's what trolls do they completely flood message boards. I say if the shoe fits wear it.

      •  Would this be the same government whose statistics (0+ / 0-)

        show that inflation is less than 4% and UE is less than 7-8%?

        ALL the negative social statistics (UE, inflation, et al) are cooked and as legitimate as a $3 bill.

        Best rule of thumb is to take whatever "official" number is given for any negative stat and double it.

        •  What statistics should we believe if not those (0+ / 0-)

          collected by the US government?  

          •  Why believe Gov stats that are incomplete? (0+ / 0-)

            I again only 21 states have provided stats. What about the other 29 states? Why doesn't this matter to you? Why are you really doing this? Why? What is your real agenda here? Why would anyone troll a suicide prevention diary whose intent it is to raise public awareness in order to save lives.

            Besides your shameful attempt to try to dehumanize the victims of military and veterans' suicide and their grieving families to mere statistics is shameful enough, but then for you to try to bludgeon people into accepting lied up government statistics is something reminiscent of actions taken in a totalitarian state, where free citizens can't question the government as part of the exercise of democracy itself. The truth is the design of these lied up government statistics is to cover the asses of senior government bureaucrats so as to provide them with job security and continued pay out of large government bonuses. It is intellectually irresponsible to accept that in a study where only 21 states have reported, that the other 29 states don't have to be examined, when in fact they don't report veteran and military suicide on their death certificates, so we don't know how much worse the problem is, than what has been reported by the government's statistics which are only estimates for what may be happening in those other 29 states. It is not a full report, it is not an accurate accounting, and why you would hatefully try to bludgeon people into prostrating ourselves before the altar of  inaccurate govt estimates is beyond belief.

            The fact is the American suicide rate is tragically high even in the general population by international standards, when we consider the easy access for Americans to firearms, as well as lack of mental health care. Whereupon a subset of that tragedy is military and veterans' suicide rates which no one wants to give a complete accounting for in the govt for obvious reasons, so I ask again why would anyone want to troll up a suicide prevention diary, how completely unconscionable of you and indeed how very sad!  

            You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

            by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 04:05:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This isn't just a Veterans' issue. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WakeUpNeo, Democrats Ramshield

      Adjusting for gender and age, veterans do have increased incidence of mental health problems and suicides.  It is unknown if this would still hold true if further adjustments were made for education or socioeconomic class.  What is clear is that, compared to the general US population and to other industrialized countries, this group is over-represented by suicides and under-represented in terms of quality mental health services, either through the VA or through other community services.

      Mental health services in the US have suffered more funding cutbacks than any other sector of medical or social services.  When the rights of mental patients were recognized and patients were turned out from mental hospitals in the 1960s and 1970s, community mental health services were established to treat these people as outpatients.  When funding for community services were cut back repeatedly over the subsequent years, community mental health services were cut back to the point that there is little service other than "medication management", quick-and-dirty mental health assessments by psychiatrists (or, depending on state, physician's assistant, nurse practitioner, or psychologist) who continue the treatment regimen unless the person is psychotic or threatening suicide or homicide.  

      These folks aren't seen in regular hospital emergency rooms unless they are in such a state, but are turned away to seek treatment from the mental health services.  A lot of these folks fall through the cracks because they don't like the side effects of their meds and discontinue treatment.  The community services can't follow up on  those cases due to large caseloads and overworked workers.  Many of these people are estranged from their families because mental health symptoms exhibited during exacerbations tend to alienate people.  Off their medications, many of these people become suicidal.

      Hopefully, the ACA will help fund mental health services in the US.

      •  In California we are doing better since we passed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Agathena

        the Mental Health Services Act. This is a 1% tax on those who make more than a million dollars a year. We now have more than just "medication management" through the Department of Mental Health and also organizations such as Mental Health America (by the way if you know of a homeless mentally ill person check MHA out. In my area they have a terrific homeless assistance program that literally saves lives.)

        The DMH has therapy and also support groups in addition to the medication. And MHA has peer-run support groups.

        Recently a study came out that shows that due to the Mental Health Services Act the numbers of mental health consumers who are able to live independently have gone up.

        These kinds of programs have also helped keep people from the revolving-door system of repeated hospitalizations. A 72 hour hold is not really enough time to get someone stabilized and when they are let loose they may not have the insurance to pay for medications. Thanks to this Act there are fewer people falling through the cracks.

        However I am not aware if they have anything specifically tailored for veterans. I guess that would be with the VA and their funding is separate as far as I know.

        It is a shame that the government does such a poor job of taking care of our solders who have put their lives on the line for our country and then abandon them when they get home. Any politician that cuts funding for veterans ought to be fired.

        If billionaires can afford to spend millions of dollars so that they can avoid paying taxes and fair wages, then they *can afford* to pay taxes and fair wages!

        by Pixie5 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:32:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  to Expat and Proud of it - thank you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Agathena

        for your well thought out comments. The simple fact is that when doc2 began trolling this diary he did not tell people the data sets that he was representing as being valid were in fact invalid, as they only included 21 out of the 50 states who reported for the study. I note even in your well thought out comments, there seems to be a perception that the veterans' suicide rate is only slightly higher than the general population. In fact there is no evidence of doc2''s submission of this reality that he purports deceptively.

        They don't want to make the facilities available in all 50 states because they don't want people to know how big of a problem veteran suicide is. So what we are left with is the knowledge that veteran and military suicides occur nearly hour. That is what this diary faithfully reported, 23 times a day military suicide takes a toll. The fact that we are talking about doc2 misleading, trolling activity shows he was completely able to divert the dialog on this diary, so as to troll it off the rec list to prevent it from gaining further support, so as to help people.

        You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

        by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 12:48:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  PS: I note Expat and Proud of it didn't rec diary (0+ / 0-)

          Whether they did this because of doc2's efforts can't be known, but what is clear is that at 132 recs the amount of time this diary was able to spend on rec list, so as to help people with military and veterans' suicide awareness was limited. This is the sad reality of the matter when we are trying to inform the public as to the size and scope of the crisis.  

          You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

          by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Apr 16, 2014 at 12:55:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Dem Ram - you are sounding very paranoid. Please (0+ / 0-)

            check your own mental stability and make sure you take all your meds as the doctor advises.  
            Rather than Trolling, Doc2 gave your diary meaning.
            Your frantic assertion "23 times a day military suicide" is meaningless until the population at risk is defined and compared with non-vets.

      •  Now THIS is another important point. Of the (0+ / 0-)

        suicides in both Vet and control populations, how many are mentally ill with a condition that could be controlled - AND how many would control it if they had the resources?

        "mental health symptoms exhibited during exacerbations tend to alienate people" - nicely put.  

    •  Not just health care. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not so sure the suicide rate can be simply laid at the door of our healthcare problems.  For one thing, societies like Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries with government-sponsored healthcare programs have much higher suicide rates (and much lower homicide rates) than in the US.  Then again, you have to take inter-cutural comparisons with a grain of salt.  Differences in cultures and attitudes toward suicide and its social environment must be taken into account as well.  

      Another factor that must be considered is the stigma attached to any mental/emotional problem in our society.  The attitude is internalized by those with mental issues, so they refuse to acknowledge their problem to others and themselves as well.  In brief, they can be in denial about it.  From personal experience, I know that depressed people will interpret their situation over-rationally.  That is, they attribute their mood to external factors - to the state of the world, as evidenced by the aforementioned diary - or to some philosophical issue they can, or cannot, think themselves out of.  Unfortunately, the former are stubborn and are not likely to go away anytime soon, and the latter often are turned inward - the eventual philosophical conclusion, driven by the depression itself,  is that the depressed person thinks her/himself damaged goods, a moral failure of some sort.  In other words, internally stigmatized.  Which is why society's stigmatization and blithering ignorance of the internal dilemma of a depressed person is so cruel.  Equally cruel is the delusion that true depression can be "cured" without medication and/or expert help.  The suicidal person will often attempt this, but in most cases fail, concluding that they are doomed.  Most of all, they cry out for compassionate attention.  This is where the rest of us can step in.  

      •  Most of all, they cry out for compassionate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Agathena

        attention.  This is where the rest of us can step in.  

        THIS.

        If billionaires can afford to spend millions of dollars so that they can avoid paying taxes and fair wages, then they *can afford* to pay taxes and fair wages!

        by Pixie5 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 at 11:35:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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