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View Diary: This Time, I Do Think One Of Us Went Too Far. (62 comments)

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  •  No, we don't. Or do want Rush Limbaugh attacking (10+ / 0-)

    Sandra Fluke for a week to go unchallenged. You give the bigots a millimeter they'll take a furlong (they don't believe in the metric system) This is ridiculous, we're finally getting to the point that bigots are feeling uncomfortable with being bigots and instead of pressing onwards we're worried we're hurting their feelings. To hell with that. Make the bigots live in the closet for a change. And maybe, just maybe, they'll realize their CHOICE to be a bigot isn't worth it. As opposed to people who are gay, black, Latino, etc. and face their discrimination with devastating consequences.

    GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

    by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:43:30 PM PDT

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    •  I agree in part. (0+ / 0-)

      I think it's a good thing that their views are becoming less socially acceptable. I just don't think it's a good thing to say that they can't have them at all.

      •  And how many dead kids will the Chick-Fil-A owner (8+ / 0-)

        offer an apology to? Gay kids and youth driven to suicide or even killed by the hate, fear, and terror Chick-Fil-A wants to spread as part of their "Christian" message. The problem with comparing their hate to our outrage is their hate kills. Literally. At the most our outrage makes them find another place to open a store. One is an inconvenience, the other is fatal. Sorry, I'm not feeling any remorse over their problem.

        GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

        by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 04:56:47 PM PDT

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        •  Chick-fil-A doesn't actually bully people. (0+ / 0-)

          Dan Cathy's comments were stupid, but not overtly anti-gay, just anti-gay marriage.

          If Daniel Dromm made his comments about people who bully LGBT youth, then I would absolutely stand behind him. Those people have no place anywhere, and need to be marginalized out of existence.

          I don't think merely opposing gay marriage and actively bullying LGBT youth is the same thing.

          •  Oh please (8+ / 0-)

            That's a distinction without a difference. They lay down with dogs and they get up with fleas.

            The anti-gay movement doesn't end with opposition to gay marriage. They're against gays simply existing.

            GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

            by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:11:40 PM PDT

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            •  Not all of them. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              newinfluence, Liberal for Life

              Chris Christie's a good example. He's wrong and bigoted about marriage equality, but he supports civil unions and supports banning ex-gay therapy.

              Opposing marriage equality is very wrong. It causes LGBT people harm. But while opponents of marriage equality do cause LGBT people harm, and they are wrong to do so, there's a difference between incidentally causing harm because of your stupid beliefs and bullying someone day in, day out, with the intent of causing extreme distress.

              In this post, I condemned the Prop 8 campaigners for the harm that they caused:

              You people waged a six-month propaganda campaign designed to make LGBT people look as bad as Hitler. You peddled every lie, stereotype and false rumor about them known to man. You exposed them to countless messages of how their families and relationships would destroy California. You exploited existing prejudices and fears about them to achieve your goal of write discrimination against them into California’s Constitution. In short, you caused them immeasurable pain, suffering, grief and anguish.
              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              I hate the harm that equality opponents cause. Believe me. But we can't stop them from holding their views entirely. Their beliefs should be shunned and ridiculed, but they should not driven out of business.

              •  Stop right there, just stop (4+ / 0-)

                When you type a sentence, "Christ Christie's a good example" and it's not followed by "of a politician headed to federal prison" your argument is flakey at best.

                Civil unions are a joke and always have been. Unless they have EXACTLY the same legal standing as marriage they're not marriage. And if you're going to make two classes of people simply because of what kind of plumbing their "Tab A" and "Slot B" are you're fostering bigotry. And the problem with letting a little bigotry foster is it festers, and quickly, into worse and worse forms.

                GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

                by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:28:12 PM PDT

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                •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

                  Civil unions are not enough. I even called Christie bigoted for his views. But what I'm saying is that it's possible to oppose gay marriage without absolutely hating gay people. Opposing gay marriage, while stupid, is not the same thing as deliberately bullying gay people, or killing them. Dan Cathy's an idiot, but he's not Aaron McKinney. There are varying degrees of hatred and bigotry. We shouldn't treat all of them the same, as if they're all as bad as is humanly possible. Some are worse than others, and that should be recognized.

                  •  The problem ultimately is *WHY* is anyone opposed (3+ / 0-)

                    to gay marriage?

                    And that lays bare the whole, "But I don't hate gays!" argument. Because there is no reason. None. Except they want to pander to people who do actively hate gays and aren't willing to say so. It's a position of political convenience. And they're giving those people a shield to hide behind. And if someone is aiding and abetting bigots then they need to look at themselves and their beliefs long and hard because I think, if they're honest, they'll find bigotry in the reflection.

                    GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

                    by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 05:57:28 PM PDT

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                    •  Not everyone. (0+ / 0-)

                      Opposing gay marriage is stupid. But I do know people who oppose gay marriage who are disgusted by homophobia.

                      Thank you for your input. It was good to understand where you're coming from. I do. You're absolutely right that bigotry should be ridiculed, not respected, and that people should feel uncomfortable holding bigoted beliefs. I just don't think that we can force them against their will to think differently.

                      I'll let it go there. We disagree, but let's get back to what we agree on: achieving marriage equality for the entire country.

                      •  No, I'm not letting you off on this (4+ / 0-)

                        Imagine someone saying something like this,

                        "I'm not a racist, but I don't think blacks should be allowed to marry whites."

                        Or how about

                        "I'm not an anti-Semite but Jews shouldn't be allowed to marry Christians."

                        Would you believe them, would you really think they weren't racist or anti-Semitic? I sure as hell wouldn't. Mull that over for a while.

                        GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

                        by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:40:11 PM PDT

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                        •  Of course I wouldn't be okay with it. (0+ / 0-)

                          I would absolutely think that they are racist or anti-Semitic. And their beliefs deserve to be shunned and ridiculed. But all I'm saying is that you cannot get into people's heads and force them to think something against their will.

                          Did you see my hypothetical in the update I posted? Consider it. Would you want Mary Fallin to apologize?

                          •  Swing and miss (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mickT, Mark Lippman

                            Your heart is in the right place but you've completely missed the larger problem -- privilege.

                            Hetero's have it made in this country. We're not picked on, harmed, losing our jobs, or even killed merely for who we love. Well, unless we're a black guy in love with a white woman, that racism does still exist, sadly.

                            Thus my opening comment to this whole thread and what you've been dancing around the entire time. It is NOT the same when a gay advocate makes an "over the top" statement about bigots as a bigot making a hateful remark about gays. Not even close. But you, I, or Bill Maher can hide behind our privilege and argue about the semantics, or "the optics", or make jokes about a "gay Mafia" and not worry about being Matthew Shepard. Or walking down the street while transgendered.

                            So I'm not going to demand or even suggest the councilman apologizes. Not until a whole lot of honest, and sincere, remorse comes from the other side. Because you don't fight a cancer by pretending it's not there.

                            GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

                            by ontheleftcoast on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:10:09 PM PDT

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                          •  I absolutely agree with (0+ / 0-)

                            "It is NOT the same when a gay advocate makes an "over the top" statement about bigots as a bigot making a hateful remark about gays. Not even close."

                            I even made the same point in my original post:

                            I also do not want to give too much sympathy to the persecution cries of NOM and other opponents of marriage equality. The discomfort they feel right now is nothing compared to the situation of many LGBT people around the country and the world, and they are nowhere near getting a Matthew Shepard or a Justin Aaberg of their own.
                            Bigotry must be challenged, fought, shunned and ridiculed. I wholeheartedly agree. But while we can put a lot of pressure on people to think what's right, ultimately, it's still their decision what they think. We can only do so much.

                            I have to leave for a little while, but I'll be back.

          •  It's not about his statements but his donations. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WattleBreakfast, koosah

            "High deductibles kill low income patients." FishOutOfWater

            by JesseCW on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 06:28:50 PM PDT

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          •  Really? You don't think that whether someone (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mickT

            is gay or not won't affect the decision to hire, fire, or promote them?   Of course they will bully/discriminate against gay people.

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Apr 14, 2014 at 07:07:24 PM PDT

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