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View Diary: Anti-Capitalist Meetup: Gay Marriage - Fools Rush in Where Angels Fear to Tread (53 comments)

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  •  I always respect your opinion, but I'm curious if (3+ / 0-)
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    Galtisalie, poco, NY brit expat

    it is specifically the nuclear family or the concept of a family in general that you feel is necessary as the smaller nuclear family is a relatively new form of marriage which really developed under capitalism.  Personally, even though it was more patriarchal, I think I prefer the extended family structure which is less individualistic and provides people broader communal support.  

    •  Whatever type of family, or lack thereof, people (2+ / 0-)
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      Geminijen, NY brit expat

      want to try is fine with me. I'm partial to the nuclear family but extended families are fine too, as long as they don't provoke disparate treatment of those outside the unit, however constructed, a great point you raise. I've seen a lot of terrible nuclear families. Many of us grew up in them. So all the criticisms of them I'd probably share. But some of us, despite the pitfalls, still like them. Bengelsdorf's book on Cuba by the way is my cite on Castro's eventual recognition that shunning nuclear families was a mistake.

      I have a personal anecdote on this. A pro-revolution family with a close friend of mine emigrated from Cuba specifically over the fear that the nuclear family was being shunned. (They were also being shunned for going to church, another historically imperfect structure I wouldn't shun.)

      That said, I always appreciate your views and education of me so much. So please realize, I see the bias in favor of families under capitalist laws as wrong. And I can do my best to empathize with other's views and experiences who've been burned by all the "pro-family" biases, etc. But I'd try to address the biases rather than proscribe nuclear families.


      garden variety democratic socialist: accepting life's complexity|striving for global stewardship of our soil and other resources to meet everyone's basic needs|being a friend to the weak

      by Galtisalie on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 06:42:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One last round! I support any institution that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Galtisalie, poco, NY brit expat

        is concerned with supporting and integrating all members of a society into the community. I oppose all institutions which I believe isolate people from their larger community goals and encourage the commodification of people.

        In this sense, I see the nuclear family as a small corner where we can run away and hide and lick our wounds when the larger struggle gets to much.  In that sense, I see it as a bribe to encourage us to stop fighting for the greater good,. For example, when we opened a women's center for all women, we found that many women did not come to the center because they suddenly decided they wanted their freedom and equality.  Most came because they had been betrayed by a patriarchal society and didn't know where to turn when their husbands or significant spouses deserted them.  At the Center, many heterosexual women turned to lesbian relationships because they felt those relationships were "different" and less abusive.  But they then stopped working on issues to help all women because they had found an individual solution to the global problem of the oppression of women.

        •  Great great points. Excellent diary. (3+ / 0-)
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          NY brit expat, Geminijen, poco

          You're very right about the "oasis/retreat" factor. Solidarity could be diminished by those who build a privileged shelter within their families. I'm not saying it is easy to address that. On the other hand, the opposition of nuclear families to socialism would be enormously counterproductive. Also, some forms of "oases/retreats" can be good and seem to be a natural human urge. For an animal it could be a familiar tree or a friend who will be there to howl at the moon with us. So, to build a successful culture, we have to factor in subjective needs and experiences.

          So sad how paternalism has degraded human relationships. I did a post the other day about Lorca mentioning "The House of Bernarda Alba." The anti-capitalist play illustrates the corruption of female relationships within a nuclear family and a rural Spanish village society. Paternalism and religiosity all played their roles to destroy whatever good might have arisen from the female relationships, and all were ultimately servants to the class structures.

          I hope that one day I can live in a society the way you'd want it. I'm sure it would be fair to all.

          garden variety democratic socialist: accepting life's complexity|striving for global stewardship of our soil and other resources to meet everyone's basic needs|being a friend to the weak

          by Galtisalie on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 07:55:32 PM PDT

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          •  I think we are in many ways on the same page. I (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Galtisalie, poco

            just think the nuclear family as it exists is a direct result of capitalism and cannot survive in a socialist society.  Given that doesn't mean that we don't need personal relationships that are warm and loving and much smaller groups.  I'm just not sure if they should be defined by hereditary rules.  

            As for right now, many people have found a haven in their family that is not evil but helpful for them personally.  It is just that others have been excluded from the development of warm personal relations because the only ones given value are those found in nuclear families.  This is where gays and other excluded people have had to start making their own families and in the process have sometimes developed groups of friends/family that I find as meaningful and are less excluding.

            Another group where I have found these created relationships is interestingly among some of the liberation theology nuns!

            Anyway, always nice dialoguing with you.  I'm glad you are in the meet-up group!

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