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View Diary: FBI and CIA Desperate Attempts To Cover Tracks (154 comments)

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  •  Even if the President truly lacks control (12+ / 0-)

    over the spies--a dystopic view I'm not quite ready to accept--he or she still has the power to go on national TV and state plainly exactly that.

    What would lack of control mean in practice? Presumably, an outright refusal to obey a lawful order from the American Head of State and Commander in Chief. If Mr. Obama or a future President clearly and forcefully outlined the problem to the American people, said "I gave this order and this CIA official refused to obey it," I'm convinced that the groundswell of support for solving that problem would be overwhelming and unstoppable. No doubt the spies would resist... but they would fucking lose.

    If--against all odds and indications--Mr. Obama finds the courage and desire to do this, he'll earn my undying and unwavering support, no matter how basically I disagree with his policies in other spheres.

    Fascism in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

    by PhilJD on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 11:01:05 AM PDT

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    •  Eisenhower is really the only president (8+ / 0-)

      who ever really even hinted that things might be a bit out of control. My speculation is that there are times that individual agents take actions that go beyond their existing authorization. That then becomes a political problem of whether they get supported or not. Claiming that they were not under administrative control is an an admission of administrative failure. That really isn't going to happen in just about any organizational system that I have ever seen.

      I see very little enthusiasm on the part of the American public for demanding any real and substantive change in all this. Just look at the NSA controversy. They get upset over the possibility that their 4th amendment rights as American citizens might have been violated, but few of them give a damn about what is being to the rest of the world.

    •  Nope. Thugs/Foxaganda would 24/7 how the patriot (0+ / 0-)

      s at CIA 'stood up' to the commimuslimkenyan trying to sell out 'real 'merikkkans'.

      IOW, it would become nothing but a political football, while the security services happily continued what they were doing only more insulated from disclosure.

      In our current politics, only a Thug in Dumbya's post-9/11 position could get away with reining the security state in without that happening.  But then you get little Goerings like Cheney who take the gloves off instead.  Even without them, Thugs likely would not bc they fear Ds would exploit it against them as they would against Ds, which is frankly likely correct tho Ds would be split rather than monolithic, not have the Wurlitzer, and even those exploiting it would do so to a lesser extent than Thugs have historically. See, Nxon, Reagan, Dumbya.

    •  I don't think it's lack of courage on Obama's part (11+ / 0-)

      I think he is very much complicit with it all, after all he is responsible for the quashing of any and all prosecutions of people that committed numerous war crimes during the Bush administration. Most of which were done by the CIA, and the FBI .
      This administration calls waterboarding "torture" meanwhile people like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, GW Bush and others openly talk about not only enabling it but with Cheney and G Bush saying they'd "do it again". Not a peep from the executive or judicial branch of this govt. .
       Furthermore this administration put to rest the prosecution of the same group by Spain and Germany, that is a matter of record.

      Look at the crime of force feeding prisoners at GITMO, which btw has been renamed a " long-term non religious fasting."  If this were happening in some Gulag in Russia Americans and newscasts would be roaring 24/7 from their respective hypocritical perches about the horror of it all, the illegality of it under international law, and insist the rest of the world rise up to help stop it.

      without the ants the rainforest dies

      by aliasalias on Sat Apr 19, 2014 at 12:39:20 PM PDT

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    •  More likely they are lying to the President (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I wouldn't be surprised if some of the reluctance to acknowledge Obama as legitimate President has infected the CIA / FBI hardliners -- and adds to the standard reluctance to disclose what they're really doing, lest someone prohibit them from doing it.

      And as President, you do not want to risk giving an order that people may refuse to obey.

      •  By now, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It is pretty clear that they are and have been lying like a rug.

        Most of the Alphabet Agencies are directly under the President, with dotted line Supervision from House and Senate Committees.

        All the President has to do, is say in Cabinet that he has "lost confidence in Lying Jake Clappers ability to do his job", and Clapper is expected to resign.

        Refusing to resign, would be a functional Coup D'Etate against the Government of the United States.

        Real reformers could then be nominated, and if declined by the Committees, well, the position, and the sub positions can be left empty for a full term, just by only nominating the reformers. The Alphabet Agencies could do no worse with out Senior Management, who knows, their performance might actually improve.

        There is funding, line vetos, the black budget, appointments of Special Investigators, all down the line.

        If you can utterly gut State, the FBI, the CIA and the DNI over "losing China", you can gut them now. If Dick Cheney can gut the DNI and CIA for not agreeing with his Iraq crap,

        You just have to want to.

        •  If your real objective is to wield (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          truong son traveler

          the full force of American power on the global stage, these people or ones just like are pretty close to being indispensable. I can't see the US giving up that power willingly.

          •  If you need CIA wetworks, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            And drones, endless streams of NSI chatter on Foreign Heads of State plus free naked selfies and Amateur porn down loaded to your lap top, faux FBI foiled terrorist plots with Keystone Cops follow up on actual terrorist strikes, along with knowing whom is sleeping with whom at the Sierra Club,

            To achieve your goals of world domination, then I guess you haven't really thought it through.

            After all, you will still have all those AirForce Drones, Seal Team 6, and the worlds largest military budget and most lethal and expeditionary military to do the heavy lifting.

            As near as I can tell from what the Alphabet Agencies are actually successful at, is suppressing dissent at home , spotting dissent in Allies abroad, and failing at coups abroad, (unless the plan was and is to break Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia, Mali, Libya, Egypt, etc and keep them broken for ever).

            That plan would actually make sense, in light of the changing World Power status, in the way that the divorced guy, used a chainsaw and a bulldozer to destroy his half, when the Court awarded half to his wife.

            India is one of the BRIC's and a three way war and terrorist between a Rump Afghanistan, a Talibanized Pashtunstan and a nuclear armed Pakistan in turmoil, would really slow down their regional and economic growth.

            •  The problem is that since (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              most of what really goes on is never going to come to light it's impossible to do a comprehensive cost benefit analysis. It seems plausible that we are more likely to hear about the failures than the successes.

              •  In Committee, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW, koNko

                They (NSA) have claimed successes, that when placed in the timeline of known events and past claims, suggests very much that those claimed "successes" were lies,

                Ditto for the "effectiveness  of Torture" claims by the CIA and the Foiled plot claims by the FBI.

                One would think, given the pressures they are under, that they would trot out at least one "success story" that stands up to the light of day.

                I get the feeling that their actual success stories are things they are not supposed to do, and that "success" is not measured by protecting America, other than Corporate America.

                •  You are talking about the success of what they (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  koNko, truong son traveler

                  claimed to be trying to accomplish, protecting the American public. If you are looking at it from the perspective of those in power you evaluate success on the basis of the real objectives such as economic espionage that never get stated publicly. Portraying all these people as a bunch of inept clowns may be entertaining, but I don't think it is an accurate reflection of reality.  

                  •  I was quietly alluding (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JesseCW, koNko, truong son traveler

                    That they are probably very good at gaining competitive advantage for GE, ITT, and Rockwell International, over their foreign competition,

                    And are very, very good at protecting the fragile Corporations from violent domestic ecoterrorists,

                    (In Canada the CESC (NSA sister), according to FOI documents in a Civil trial, spent 2 years monitoring* the electronic communications and real time GPS/cellphone triangulation location of the guy who came up with the idea of the Teddy Bear Catapult at the G20).

                    *technically CSEC is banned from monitoring Canadian domestic communications, but they are not barred from asking the NSA or GCHQ from doing it and cc'ing them the files.

                    But none of that is their "job".

    •  That's what really gets me, (0+ / 0-)

      the pretending.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 02:33:41 AM PDT

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