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View Diary: Housing Secretary: “the worst rental affordability crisis that this country has ever known" (301 comments)

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  •  Cheated? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Neuroptimalian

    No, honest dealing.

    In a gas shortage, gas is expensive.
    In a housing shortage, housing is expensive.

    In all cases, the price is whatever allows the market to clear. You call that gouging and imply a moral failing among sellers of commodities, but it's the only way to allocate scarce resources.

    If you're discussing "cheating" as in lying or misrepresentation of material matters, that is a huge problem. But that's not what people call "gouging".

      If someone finds you in a time of weakness and takes everything you and your family has then that isn't gouging because the market allowed it.
    You agreed to it, didn't you? You were free not to. They didn't "take" it: you gave it.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 05:51:50 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  yeh, cheated (16+ / 0-)
      In a gas shortage, gas is expensive.
      In a housing shortage, housing is expensive.
       In a water shortage water is expensive. In fact, it could cost every dollar you have.
         But it wouldn't be "cheating" because you've got to have it.
      If you're discussing "cheating" as in lying or misrepresentation of material matters, that is a huge problem.
      No its not. As long as its legal then its not a "problem", it's a feature. That's how its always been, and in fact, the system encourages it.
         And when it isn't legal, well, laws can be changed.

       You know, this is why I have a problem with libertarians. They really do believe that morality should have nothing to do with any business dealings. That if you are ignorant about anything, then you deserve to be taken advantage of, as if that attitude would really work in the real world.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 06:00:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "...but it's the only way to allocate... (14+ / 0-)

      ... scarce resources."

      So, your view is that in case of a disaster in which there are 10,000 people who each must have a gallon of water a day but would be better off with two, the only way to allocate the available 12,000 gallons is to charge what the market will bear even if it means some percentage of those 10,000 people will not be able to afford that one gallon of water whose price has been jacked up?

      Let me just say that this is NOT the only way to allocate. You may say that it's the only way that doesn't distort the market, but what's a distorted market compared with a couple of thousand people without water? Kindling for revolution, imo.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 10:56:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Leaving aside the fact that the comment (6+ / 0-)

        was either a simple "troll", or if a belief, it indicates a lack of humanity scarcely believable on a site like this ...

        ... leaving that aside, it also presumes that there is no such thing as a regulated market.

        In fact, there is not such thing as an unregulated market, and the only argument is about the nature of the regulations.

        The term "Free Market" describes something that doesn't exist, and actually is the last thing capitalists want. They simply want regulations they approve of.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Sun Apr 20, 2014 at 11:02:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Re (0+ / 0-)

        You are discussing an emergency situation where people will die without access to some commodity or other.

         First of all, government price controls will encourage frivolous use of the commodity in question, since price is what deters its use. Anti-gouging or price control laws will just encourage people to use more water, whereas high prices will stop them.

        The situation you are talking about is a civil emergency of some type, probably requiring martial law. Normal laws go out the window during natural disasters. Maybe the government has to appropriate all supply, then forcibly deal out the shortages. Even this has severe drawbacks. However, while a private market for something still exists, there cannot be gouging. There is only charging the market price.

      •  We aren't talking water which falls from the sky (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk

        We are talking housing which costs big bucks. I have no problem
        with regulating rental housing but many here are just bitching.

      •  Libertarians have an idea about the market (0+ / 0-)

        that doesn't exist in reality.
          For instance, Sparhawk's comment about libertarians not supporting lies and misrepresentations.

          Well, people already lie and misrepresent themselves all the time, and that is with at least some amount of government regulations.
          What does Sparhawk think will happen when there are no government regulations in his libertarian utopia?

        "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

        by gjohnsit on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 10:25:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  have you lived in a place with shortages? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit, raspberryberet

      in 2004, central florida experienced four hurricanes all in a row.  i was without power for 2 months, lost water after all the hurricanes and gas was extremely hard to get.  many businesses attempted to gouge people for basic living necessities and gave the same BS excuse you gave above.

      •  Yeah (0+ / 0-)

        High prices are why you had access to gas at all.

        "Normal" prices would have depleted inventories instantly.

        •  wrong (5+ / 0-)

          the government expressly forbid increasing prices above what the price was before the hurricane and we got gas because, ironically, actually money is better than hypothetical money.

          "Normal" prices would have depleted inventories instantly.
          literally did not happen.  additionally, this is the same type of argument that can be made for usury.  and the morality of your argument is the same as saying interventional cardiologists should be able to gouge you on prices when you present with a heart attack and need stenting or you will die.  it's the same argument being put forward by the tea party to deny people health care via obamacare too.

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