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View Diary: Certain Ukraine Units Refusing Orders to Stop Protestors as Russia Threatens Invasion (83 comments)

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  •  Lower in the comments section (1+ / 0-)
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    Pluto

    I posted a long-ish comment below about why it's so hard to know, and what my own difficulties have been with parsing the good information from the bad.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something.  

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 10:52:14 PM PDT

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    •  It's always that way. It can still be summarized (0+ / 0-)

      in a fairly accurate manner.  The problem is, there are two completely different views.  

      •  Why two? (0+ / 0-)

        On the ground, there are people in favor of EU integration, people in favor of Russian annexation, people in favor of federalizing the state, people in favor of a more complete ethnic balkanization, people in favor of returning to the pre-Maidan status quo, or to the 90s arrangment (pre-constitution that established the legal status of places like Crimea), etc. etc.  It only resolves to two sides if you're stuck on the Great Game narrative between the U.S. and Russia, but however much those two sides are playing for their benefit, the situation for Ukrainians is far more complex.

        Take, for example, the fake antisemitic circulars from last week.  Pro-Kiev Jewish leaders (e.g. Kaminezki) were out front dismissing the circular as a fraud, even though it implicated Kiev in the forgery.  So it's not even a matter of taking evidence and filtering it through one or the other ideology.  It's not always about views.

        Murders, kidnappings: these are not just matters of perspective.

        To that end - look, I've been upfront about my biases here, and I think it's important to understand that pro-Western integration has a lot more at stake than anything the U.S. or NATO is selling economically or geopolitically (well-captured in a kerfuffle in Russia this week over a popular but controversial cartoon.)  That's why it's so frustrating to see everything getting boiled down into these "two viewpoints".

        But it's also about sources.  Pluto isn't wrong, above, that getting everything through English-speaking media is not going to give you a very rounded view of events.  I don't think roundedness is the only problem, though. Lately I've been trying to go a step further and only link to primary sources (as much as possible - it's a frustration that Russian-language media typically doesn't do transcripts, and it's a lot of work to transcribe myself).  Because a lot gets lost in the translation.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 09:35:11 AM PDT

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        •  I was referring to this blog where it's impossible (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice

          to rationally discuss issues such as this.  That's what it usually boils down to.
          Pro-Gaddafi, pro-Assad, pro-Hussein, pro-Putin
          versus U.S. is good, Obama is good, the U.S. is not doing anything wrong.  Etc.
          An over generalization perhaps but that's what it usually devolves into, or starts as depending on the content of the diary.

          "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

          by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 09:52:47 AM PDT

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          •  Why's it impossible? We seem to be doing (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt

            pretty well.

            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

            by pico on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 02:03:52 PM PDT

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            •  We haven't talked about anything specific. If (0+ / 0-)

              say we talk about the chemical attack last August in Syria and who did it, that's when the discussions stop.  That's the kind of thing that can't be debated.  It can be discussed among those who have the same views, but when someone believes it was done by Assad and another believes it wasn't, it usually devolves into that name calling I mentioned above.  
              That's part of the reason I stopped writing diaries.  It wasn't worth the headache anymore.  It's also why I usually don't even write substantive comments anymore.  It's like, what's the use.  Part of it is trying to do it on the internet.  It's certainly not as conducive to debate as in person.

              "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

              by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 02:18:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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