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View Diary: The REAL Cliven Bundy Story: Lawbreaking, Terror, and Entitlement (50 comments)

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  •  So you see that they did take action ? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grover, skrekk, Rashaverak

    They went to round up his cows .
    Your question is why now and not before ?

    http://www.cnn.com/...

    In 1993, Bundy stopped paying the grazing fees for using federal Bureau of Land Management land. His fees accumulated to $1 million. Finally, after two courts ruled in the bureau's favor, it moved to seize Bundy's cattle, planning to sell them at auction to pay for the 20 years' worth of grazing fees.
    On April 5, the bureau brought in armed federal agents and began removing Bundy's cattle. Bundy's son Dave was arrested for refusing to leave. That night, Bundy sent a message: "They have my cattle and now they have one of my boys. Range War begins tomorrow."
    So the feds saw the crime and took him to court to try to get the money from him , I assume you are OK with that , he didn't get preferential treatment , the feds did not look the other way , they went with "armed federal agents" to take the cows , I assume you are OK with that , I doubt you would call that preferential treatment . An armed standoff came about , innocent people were put in danger . The cooler heads did the right thing , imho .

    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

    by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 02:17:03 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Here's the thing about "armed standoffs": (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chi, AdamSelene

      Anywhere else in America, they end with the police arresting the people brandishing the guns, not retreating.

      Do you really think that if government officials came to execute a court order against you, and you called your friends and they pointed guns at the officials, that ANY of you would avoid going to jail that very day?

      Yes, Bundy and his gang got preferential treatment. Honestly, I'm surprised that I'm even having to argue this point, because it's so obvious, to anyone who is familiar with how law enforcement officers operate in this country.

      As for the time it took for action to be taken against Bundy on the financial issue, it seems like an awful long time. But I confess that I don't know enough about how the court process works in such cases to assess whether or not it took longer for Bundy than it would for anyone else. It seems fishy to me though, and I'd like to see a full investigation by the media.

      The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

      by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 02:23:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rashaverak
        "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken
        Here's the thing about "armed standoffs":
        Anywhere else in America, they end with the police arresting the people brandishing the guns, not retreating.
        So if you were in charge you would have insisted that your people go into the area with armed people and do what needs to be done even though you did not expect that much armed resistance , that many innocents to be there , etc etc etc ?
        If a gun battle started and your side was outgunned , what would you do ?
        If you survived and you were asked after people were killed and wounded , why didn't you wait ? What would you say ?

        So please tell me , how many men did you go in with , what did they have for arms , how many were on the other side and what were they armed with ? Were your men in the open while the other side had cover ?

        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 02:47:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Standard police procedure should be followed. (0+ / 0-)

          That is all. I have never heard of people being allowed to pull guns on federal officials and not be arrested immediately for that action. It is literally unheard of in this country.

          The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

          by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 02:49:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Never heard ? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grover, Rashaverak

            Heard of the Waco Raid and Siege ?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            Standard police procedure should be followed.
            And you know what that is how ? What does the BLM rule book state re its officers meeting up with a large armed gang ?

            ...........................
            Do you know that high speed pursuits are sometimes called off when the danger becomes to great ?

            "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

            by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:03:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So why isn't the Bundy ranch now under seige? (0+ / 0-)

              You bring up Waco, yet the government is not acting in this case like they did at Waco. They are currently doing nothing to bring Bundy to justice. He is not under seige, he has not been arrested, nor have the members of his armed gang been arrested, nor are their homes under seige either.

              Basically, no police action is being taken to bring these armed gang members into jail, or to keep them confined to their homes in preparation for a careful arrest.

              The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

              by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:06:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No shots have been fired , (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rashaverak

                cool heads kept the thing from getting over heated . This is a good thing . Unlike some who would rush in , they decided to back away before it got any worse .

                You bring up Waco, yet the government is not acting in this case like they did at Waco.
                And that is a good thing .
                They are currently doing nothing to bring Bundy to justice.
                OK sure .
                Like a Swan, “Calm and Serene Above Water, But We're Paddling Like Mad, Going Crazy Underneath”.

                "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:23:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Local cops can just arrest the guy. (0+ / 0-)
                  You bring up Waco, yet the government is not acting in this case like they did at Waco.
                  And that is a good thing .
                  Um, you're the one who said they should put Bundy under seige like Waco.

                  My preference is that he just be arrested by the local cops -- today, tomorrow, sometime soon -- the same way any local police department would do if a person is known to have assembled an armed gang to obstruct justice.

                  The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                  by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:29:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Eh ? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    grover, Rashaverak
                    Um, you're the one who said they should put Bundy under seige like Waco.
                    Don't just say I did , quote me . If you can't quote me saying that , then you should retreat from that .
                    Local cops can just arrest the guy.
                    I guess you are not really seeing what is going on .

                    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                    by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:37:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why did you bring up Waco? (0+ / 0-)

                      If not to say that a siege would be better than an immediate arrest of Bundy? If I misinterpreted you, then I apologize, but I hope you will explain what you actually meant.

                      As for my comment about local cops, I have a feeling that Bundy's "militias" will chicken out if they see actual cops moving in to make the arrest. They're probably all bark and no bite.

                      However, it's probably a good idea for the police to have FBI backup and whatever other agencies supporting them, ready to spring into action immediately, if there is any provokation by Bundy or his friends.

                      The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                      by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:45:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OK . (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Rashaverak
                        Why did you bring up Waco?
                        That is all. I have never heard of people being allowed to pull guns on federal officials and not be arrested immediately for that action. It is literally unheard of in this country.
                        The arrests were not made immediately .
                        There was a long delay . 51 days .

                        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 04:38:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Here is a pretty good write up of the story . (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Eric Stetson, grover, Rashaverak

                http://www.newsweek.com/...

                On the weekend of April 12 to 13, over 1,000 anti-government militia groups and Bundy supporters converged on his ranch to defend him from the encroachment of federal agents and demand the return of his cattle. Around 10 a.m. Saturday, Bundy issued an ultimatum to the Clark County sheriff: He had one hour to disarm all federal agents on the property, return the cattle and remove the BLM from Bundy’s land.
                I bet this has been bumped way up from BLM and the local sheriff . I expect the FBI and anti terror groups are gathering info and making plans .

                "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:33:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hopefully so. And they must be prepared (0+ / 0-)

                  for a no-retreat, mass-arrest action if necessary. Hopefully they are making careful plans for how to bring in the armed gangs if they show up next time. Perhaps thousands of well-armed and well-trained officers will be needed. Tear gas, tasers, etc. When they move in, they must accomplish the arrests without any bloodshed, if at all possible.

                  The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                  by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:42:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are still not getting it . (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    grover
                    Perhaps thousands of well-armed and well-trained officers will be needed. Tear gas, tasers, etc. When they move in, they must accomplish the arrests without any bloodshed, if at all possible.
                    This isn't a Hollywood movie .

                    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                    by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:50:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, I think you're not getting it. (0+ / 0-)

                      Either you want the law enforced, or you don't.

                      Do you, or do you not, want Bundy and his armed gangs arrested?

                      If you do, then how do you want that to occur? You yourself are making the point that it needs to be done carefully and without bloodshed, if possible. I agree. But in order for that to be accomplished, law enforcement must have enough officers on hand so that the "militias" won't dare to go up against them.

                      I haven't seen any explanation from you about how you want Bundy and his gang members to be arrested. You just keep trying to contradict everything I say, when I argue that the law should be enforced and they should be arrested.

                      So what is actually your position here? How do you believe the government should go about enforcing the law in this case, if not by making arrests in as careful and well-prepared a way as possible?

                      The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                      by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 03:56:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Dude , (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Rashaverak
                        Local cops can just arrest the guy.
                        vs
                        Perhaps thousands of well-armed and well-trained officers will be needed.
                        Your positions keep moving as problems are pointed out and info is given to you .
                        It's strange to say the least .
                        ..................
                        Either you want the law enforced, or you don't.
                        Do you, or do you not, want Bundy and his armed gangs arrested?
                        Really , is this a well thought out question ?

                        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 04:28:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  My position is very simple and consistent: (0+ / 0-)

                          Arrest the guy and his armed gangs. Do it in the same way that other people who break the law are arrested, every day, across America. Don't treat him with kid gloves; don't give him special treatment. Above all, don't elevate him to a level of importance where the government has to defer to him and his wishes in any way, or that of his armed supporters. Deal with him in exactly the same way as the police routinely deal with armed gangs in the cities, doing drug busts, etc. Just go in there with enough law enforcement personnel as necessary and put the cuffs on them. Routine stuff.

                          The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                          by Eric Stetson on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 05:01:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  ..... (0+ / 0-)
                        Lots of guns , innocent people , kids even , just back off , redo the paperwork to encompass the new crimes , regroup and wait for the situation to clear .

                        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 04:33:02 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Really ? (0+ / 0-)
                        Do you, or do you not, want Bundy and his armed gangs arrested?
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...
                         I'm not willing to risk anyone's life to quickly (5+ / 0-)

                        arrest him or his supporters . I'd ever so slowly get the job done , iykwim .
                        bundy can't go anywhere , he has to stay on that land , he can't run away . So no need to rush . A smart person goes slow and safe where a fool rushes in . If it takes a week , a month or 6 months , what do I care ?
                        He who laughs last ,
                        laughs best .
                        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 01:15:30 PM PDT

                        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

                        by indycam on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 04:42:57 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Ruby Ridge. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rashaverak
                Public outcry over Ruby Ridge and the subsequent Waco siege involving many of the same agencies and even the same personnel fueled the widening of the militia movement. To answer public questions about Ruby Ridge, the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information held a total of 14 days of hearings between September 6 and October 19, 1995, and subsequently issued a report calling for reforms in federal law enforcement to prevent a repeat of Ruby Ridge and to restore public confidence in federal law enforcement.
                http://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

                This is what American citizens want.

                And um, I think we have really good reason to prefer the cautious approach:

                Motivated by his hatred of the federal government and angered by what he perceived as its mishandling of the 1993 Waco siege and the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, McVeigh timed his [Oklahoma City Federal Buikding] attack to coincide with the second anniversary of the deadly fire that ended the siege at Waco.
                http://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 04:05:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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