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View Diary: Bill Maher blasts cheating conservatives and obnoxious liberals (205 comments)

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  •  FWIW... (0+ / 0-)

    I voted for Al Gore and Barack Obama, twice.

    I shan't be voting again.

    It's not working...at least not for the 99%.

    A society consisting of the sum of its vanity and greed is not a society at all but a state of war. - Lewis Lapham

    by joegoldstein on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 06:22:59 AM PDT

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    •  And THAT is precisely (30+ / 0-)

      what those who try to fix the vote want from you.

      "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Gentle Giant on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 06:28:23 AM PDT

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    •  So did I. (11+ / 0-)

      That's two out of three by my count.

      What we got from those last two results is "not working" as well as you or I might have hoped; I'll accept that.

      That it isn't working better than the alternatives: I don't accept that.

      •  One of the problems with the way all of this... (0+ / 0-)

        is approached by many here is that they view it as a sporting event.

        Wins and losses, keeping score.

        But yet they don't see that the playing field itself is tilted in the favor of the Oligarchy.

        A few scraps thrown to the rabble, here and there, including what FDR did, is NOT ACCEPTABLE to me.

        I'm sorry that it is acceptable to so many here. You have no idea how that saddens me.

        A society consisting of the sum of its vanity and greed is not a society at all but a state of war. - Lewis Lapham

        by joegoldstein on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 07:33:21 AM PDT

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        •  I'm not sure... (5+ / 0-)

          ...that these things are really the case:

          ...they view it as a sporting event...they don't see that the playing field itself is tilted in the favor of the Oligarchy...it is acceptable to so many here.
          It may be the case that "Voting was NOT [the] primary means of change" for Martin Luther King, Malcom X, and Frederick Douglass, as you say below, but I doubt very much that they passed on the opportunity to do so if it was available to them.

          I am sure, however, that any given election may be viewed by many as a choice merely between "bad" and "worse." But, hell: if that's my choice, I don't see any value in bowing out of the process so others can choose the "worse."

          I therefore wonder two things:

          - What, exactly, is it you expect from voting? That even if your candidates of choice are elected, they'll magically know the minds of millions of citizens and do just as each of them wishes? That's obviously not possible, even if those citizens did explicitly express their wishes between elections (which they generally don't).

          - Is your purpose here to be talked back into participating, or to discourage others from doing so? If the latter, I can't imagine what benefit there is in it.

          •  I believe that in a true Democracy where... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laconic Lib

            money doesn't rule the day and that we aren't ruled by an Oligarchy, voting can be effective.

            My purpose here is two-fold. To enjoy discussions and offer my opinion.

            To learn and inform.

            While I've not any of my deep opinions changed, and I have no idea if I've changed anyone, either, I have learned a great deal.

            I also enjoy the community. It is a big community here. My most enjoyable part of the dKos experience, believe it or not, has nothing at all to do with politics (I'm a member of the dKos Sangha.)

            Having said that, I believe that our planet is in extreme and dire straits. Everything from climate change, resource depletion (especially water), over population, and extreme wealth inequality.) I care about these things and I am trying to find a way to change things for the better.

            At this point in time, I do not believe that voting makes any statistical difference.

            I hope that answers your questions, if not, please let me know if I can clarify.

            A society consisting of the sum of its vanity and greed is not a society at all but a state of war. - Lewis Lapham

            by joegoldstein on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 08:58:13 AM PDT

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            •  Not really. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              UnionMade

              It appears to take a step back from them, and to comment instead on some more general issues.

              By "your purpose here," I had in mind your original post this morning denouncing voting as "a fools gambit." I'm not sure what sort of responses you expected, but - nothing personal - it's encouraging to me that they were generally unsympathetic to the idea.

              I do appreciate those more general comments, and hope you find that "way to change things for the better." I know that there are any number of us - if too few - who do engage in other ways of effecting change, yet do so in addition to, rather than in lieu of, voting. That would seem to me to be the more productive course, no matter how little difference that one specific civic exercise appears to make at any given time.

        •  It's not about who you want; it's about (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, UnionMade

          ...what you'll get. There is value in choosing even when you know you won't get even close to your desired outcome, or all your needs being met.
          I like voting to let the guy who is going to win in my congressional district know that he isn't THAT popular. I like voting to let the person who will win the presidency that they ARE that popular. Then after the fan mail votes (and anti fan mail) I like to get local and try to make a difference. I wanted Monsanto to have to label in my state. It didn't win but was worth a try. I wanted Prop 8 to die. I want better judges who can make a big difference (SCOTUS and on down).
          I think of this like a public opinion poll with more teeth. Or it would have more teeth if everyone could get off their skeptical cynical lazy asses and make their opinion known.  (If you faced I surmountable obstacles getting to vote I'm not talking about you.)
          And no, it doesn't stop there. Don't assume everyone ONLY votes. There are many other ways to make change and some may be more effective even than voting. But voting is still an effective way to make your opinions known. And sometimes you get lucky.

          Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that would be one step toward obtaining it. --Henry David Thoreau

          by pam on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 08:51:12 AM PDT

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          •  Thank you for your thoughts, Pam (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pam

            I don't assume that everyone only votes.

            Please, also, don't assume that because I will no longer be voting that I am not and will not be involved in other forms of social change.

            BTW, Henry David Thoreau is one of my heroes.

            A society consisting of the sum of its vanity and greed is not a society at all but a state of war. - Lewis Lapham

            by joegoldstein on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 09:09:31 AM PDT

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            •  Thoreau (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joegoldstein

              was rather anti-statist, and is considered an anarchist in basic philosophy. He would be very likely in complete agreement with you on the relative futility of voting.

              "The political arena leaves one no alternative, one must either be a dunce or a rogue." Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

              by ZhenRen on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 11:25:24 AM PDT

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    •  So the thousands of lives that (6+ / 0-)

      will be saved by some of the provisions of Obamacare are just for decoration?  A major start to healthcare  policy that has been denied for centuries and you can't see anything?  A solid step forward in a policy area that history shows improves incrementally as it adapts over years and decades?

      There is a path through your cynicism, but you have to want to leave that cold comfort of cynical anger.

      I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

      by Satya1 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 07:15:41 AM PDT

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      •  What I want is Universal Healthcare (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        as a basic human right. I bow down to no scraps from the 1%, even when the scraps are delivered by those with a "D" by their names instead of an "R".

        The very fact that all we are offered is a "D" or an "R" should inform you of the deceit which is being perpetrated upon us.

        A society consisting of the sum of its vanity and greed is not a society at all but a state of war. - Lewis Lapham

        by joegoldstein on Mon Apr 28, 2014 at 07:29:00 AM PDT

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      •  Frankly yes (0+ / 0-)
        So the thousands of lives that will be saved by some of the provisions of Obamacare are just for decoration?
        As far as the insurance companies are concerned it is. Profits are up. And therefore bribery will be up in the foreseeable future.
        And by the way, it is only because we are willing to accept second best that we get second best. If we had been willing to accept the consequences of punishing the Democrats for refusal to perform (like the republican right) yes, we would have been in the woods for a time, but we would have come out (like the Republicans) and would be in power today. (unlike now)
        Of course that's all spilled milk today. Today we cannot afford to  sacrifice a few elections to clear out second rate Democrats; the danger is too high. We should all stop this suicidal argument and formulate a strategy that leads to the survival of the American democracy and the human race.
        That said, corporate Democrats are as deadly as Republicans. They are not the answer.
    •  The problem is your definition of "working" (4+ / 0-)

      Because people voted for Obama we got Obamacare and now there are thousands of people who will not die from preventable causes.  No, it's not as good as single payer and there are still people who are going to die from preventable causes, but there is a difference between "not working" and "Not working as well as you would like."

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