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  •  Underlines what religious violence can do to a (11+ / 0-)

    society. It's a little sad to see the diarist's sig line.

    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility
    The ongoing violence, murder, kidnapping and rape in Nigeria between opposing Christian and Muslim factions you'd think would be an example of some of the damage religion can do.

    Look at Boko Haram's name and listen to what they themselves tell you is their motivation behind their actions and tell me that LESS questioning of religion is the problem.

    When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

    by PhillyJeff on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 01:44:17 PM PDT

    •  Another quick point before I get flamed (20+ / 0-)

      which I assume will happen given the rampant atheist bashing I've noticed lately on DKos:

      There's no way to even begin to solve the issues in Nigeria without dealing with or at least acknowledging the religiousness of the belligerents.

      You can't end poverty without empowering women which includes promoting contraception - which won't happen when fundamentalists won't allow it.

      You can't empower women when religious fundamentalists murder, kidnap, rape and disfigure with acid young girls for the crimes of trying to go to school.

      You can't end disease when fundamentalists won't allow vaccinations and kill doctors who try to treat sick people.

      Unfortunately until these groups moderate themselves by whatever process is available (or until they're killed which probably won't happen) these kinds of crimes against humanity are likely to continue.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 02:05:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's only one religion that's the issue here. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ExpatGirl, sandbox, get the red out

        Boko Haram is merely an exaggerated version of what Islam means throughout northern Nigeria: rejection of civil authority and violent misogyny.  I know some people will claim that Boko Haram stands in the same relationship to Islam as the Lord's Resistance Army stands to Christianity, but that's not true.  The LRA is a personality cult with a purely nominal religious idiom, while BH is a depersonalized cult that is purely and entirely religious, not only in idiom but in the substance of what it wants.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 04:06:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  PhillyJeff: we must also put OUR house in order (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wader, wenchacha, BYw, mamamedusa, unfangus

        There's no way to even begin to solve the issues in Appalachia or the South or the Midwest or California or Florida without dealing with or at least acknowledging the religiousness of the belligerents.

        You can't end poverty without empowering women which includes promoting contraception - which won't happen when fundamentalists won't allow it, as the Gee O Pee is now fighting to maintain ("conscience clauses" for doctors and pharmacists, and hospitals refusal to provide rape victims with emergency contraception on religious grounds).

        You can't empower women when religious fundamentalists murder, kidnap, rape and disfigure with acid young girls for the crimes of trying to go to school. Nor can you empower women when religious fundamentalists demand textbooks and medical regulations filled with lies about breast cancer, infertility and guilt.

        You can't end disease when fundamentalists won't allow vaccinations and kill doctors who try to treat sick people.
        You can't end illness when fundamentalists demand a "free market" system of health-care access or shoot doctors in church for providing abortion.

        Unfortunately until these groups moderate themselves by whatever process is available (or until they're killed which probably won't happen) these kinds of crimes against humanity are likely to continue.

        Nigeria's crimes are different from ours how, again?

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 05:45:40 PM PDT

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        •  In degree, not in kind n/t (4+ / 0-)

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 06:08:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So you're saying we shouldn't care? (0+ / 0-)

          We can't even say it's bad that young girls are kidnapped, raped and sold off for $12 each because our own Christian fundamentalists are bad also?

          First of all, our crimes are not the same. It's much much worse to intentionally bomb Churches and crowded markets and to kidnap and rape teenage girls than to insert conscience clauses in pharmacies. If you can't see that then we can never have a conversation about anything.

          Nigeria's crimes are different from ours how, again?
          I'm actually terrified if you're representative of progressives and I'm terrified that you got 5 recs.

          There is a fundamental lack of compassion on the left towards non-Americans and particularly non-white nations that frankly disgusts me.

          When we invade a country progressives rightly condemn our actions. But when Russia invades, annexes and destabilizes parts of Ukraine they're not Murikin' so we don't care.

          We speak out against misogynistic policies in America, but when foreign women are killed, kidnapped and raped we don't care. Our country isn't perfect and they're not Murikin' and it's somehow hypocritical to condemn misogyny in more than 1 country so we don't care.

          You know what, I care about kids dying and being kidnapped and raped around the world even when our country isn't perfect and I can damn sure condemn the people killing and raping them when our country isn't perfect.

          You should be ashamed of yourself.

          When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

          by PhillyJeff on Thu May 01, 2014 at 09:35:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No Flaming (4+ / 0-)

        Let me just say thank you for your comment. As a Nigerian American - a woman born in Lagos, but mostly raised in the US, I'm always horrified when I return "home" and visit the rest of the family. I'm Christian, was raised in the religion since birth, and to some might be considered a strict Christian, yet I've got very liberal political views. For these reasons I'm always left floundering when I hear about the typical life of the locals - those related to me and not.

        First let me just say, Nigeria as a whole is very fundamentalist. In some ways it's the country the deep red south wants America to be. The top down metrics have resulted in a host of issues with religious fanatics and their progress being one of the symptoms.

        As far as I'm concerned, Nigerian Christians are only slightly less conservative than their Islamic brothers and sisters. While we're hearing of Boko Haram and the kidnapping of 200 plus girls, I can tell you that the fundamentalist Christians have been "marrying" girls and young women for decades now. They've just never been as brazen.

        While my family was saddened about what happened, I can tell you that most of us just shook our heads and prayed for the girls. We know too much of the horrors that happen there to be truly surprised.

        To be honest I was only surprised by the number of girls taken. For example, I doubt you've all heard about Boko Haram walking into universities and colleges across the north and shooting kids point blank and walking out.

        Colleges in the north closed for days in fear. I mean just imagine you send your kids to school to get the best education possible so they can make something of themselves and you find out they were killed in class by terrorists and that your government will barely acknowledge it happened? You don't get told by officials about your child's death, but from whispers and rumors?

        Each and every one of the issues you've touched upon are happening on both sides - Christians and Muslim fundamentalists are guilty. Some of the largest churches in Africa are located in Nigeria and they eschew everything but prayer.

        It is of my belief and the belief of my family and friends here, that Boko Haram will continue to terrorize Nigeria and expand to most of West Africa. I sincerely doubt the rest of the world will step in until BH gets too big for their britches and target either Great Britain or America - as that's where most Nigerians emigrate so easy access. I think then and only then will the West come down on them. I know a little of my history - How long did Saddam Hussein terrorize his own country before the US stepped in?

    •  I know what Boko Haram is about (4+ / 0-)

      it's in their very name--it translates to "education is forbidden".

      as for my sigline, I'm not going to get into it here, but it doesn't have anything to do with atheism overall (I happen to be one) but with Dawkins specifically.

      Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility. uid 52583 lol

      by terrypinder on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 03:41:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BYw

        It has nothing to with the actual Richard Dawkins that really exists.  It has to do with your dishonest imaginary caricature of Dawkins.

        This exact problem highlighted in this diary is precisely the sort of thing that made him decide it was time to shift gears and speak out explicitly about religion,

        •  Nope, but stay mad. (0+ / 0-)

          Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility. uid 52583 lol

          by terrypinder on Thu May 01, 2014 at 04:29:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course I'm mad (0+ / 0-)

            Being mad is a natural reaction to someone who refuses to stop deliberately lying.  Stop lying in your sig after every single post.  Especially in a diary like this which is about exactly the sort of religious misogyny that angers a feminist like Dawkins.

            •  Heck no (0+ / 0-)

              Just because Richard Dawkins calls himself a feminist doesn't mean he actually is. His infamous "Dear Muslima" comment was blatantly sexist. And his defense of racial profiling is just as bad.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Sat May 03, 2014 at 11:06:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for this diary and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        get the red out

        for correctly identifying the Boko Haram as a radicial islamist terrorist group.  Too often in the news media, Boko Haram is identified as just another terrorist group--without mentioning their radical islamist motvation.

        Posters correctly say that the US can't do all that much in Nigeria to fight Boko Haram. However, we can adapt policies that known radical islamists not be allowed into the US and other western countries.

    •  Opposing Christian and Muslim factions? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      get the red out

      Give me a fucking break.

      It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

      by Rich in PA on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 03:57:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i think the point of that sig is Dawkins is a jerk (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      get the red out

      and anybody can do evil in service of any cause, last i checked

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Thu May 01, 2014 at 12:24:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If Dawkins were talking about Republican policies (0+ / 0-)

        instead of religion he'd be tamer than 99% of the guests on MSNBC shows and probably 100% of DKos diarists. Because he talks about religion he's a jerk.

        If Dawkins is a jerk for questioning or criticizing religion then how can we ever question Boko Haram's clearly deeply held religious beliefs?

        That's why it's important to remove religion's "special status" or we're never going to be able to criticize damaging fundamentalists because they can always use the "you're a jerk" defense.

        It's actually condescending and seems possibly racist to believe that Muslims or people from the developing world are such delicate flowers and/or such insane unhinged murders that if their beliefs are questioned or criticized in any way that it's just in their nature to kill people.

        They don't do this stuff in a vaccum. Clearly they think it's ok or justified by their interpretation of Islam to kill people and kidnap and rape young women. That's bad and wrong and I don't care if it's their deeply held religious belief.

        When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

        by PhillyJeff on Thu May 01, 2014 at 09:24:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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