Skip to main content

View Diary: DEA Chief Michele Leonhart should resign immediately and President Obama should demand it (237 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Heavy use - absolutely - no comparison... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Notreadytobenice

    Light to social use - alcohol might not be as bad. Certainly light use has been shown to be quite beneficial for alcohol. More real research needed on cannabis.

    •  what? (5+ / 0-)

      light/social use of MJ is worse than alcohol? How do you figure?

      You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

      by nota bene on Fri May 16, 2014 at 05:11:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We have many... (0+ / 0-)

        large and longitudinal studies that show that an alcoholic beverage a day - particularly a glass of red wine - has many health benefits for an otherwise healthy person. This effect seems to be amplified for those on a Mediterranean diet which generously uses various "good" fats such as olive oil as well. Doctors are obviously a bit circumspect with this because there are too many of us who go by the belief that if one is good, then 5 or 6 must be super!

        There are no similar studies that show that smoking marijuana creates additional health benefits for an otherwise healthy person. If fact, the most recent studies are turning up some concerns for even light smokers. I will agree that federal regulations and biases make it difficult to conduct a good large scale and longitudinal study, but that doesn't change the fact that we simply have no good information yet.

        My good friend who posts below argues that certain cannabinoid oils and resins are good for various reasons - particularly for those with certain maladies. I will agree that there is research that supports this, but much more needs to be done to determine the proper doses and delivery methods. We might well find out that certain isolated oils are good as a dietary supplement. I argue that we don't have that proof yet.

        I won't agree at all that smoking is a good delivery method for any type of palliative agent or even for a recreational agent. Also, the type of marijuana or cannabis that is most regularly smoked is that with high THC levels and are not necessarily selected for their oil or resin content. (I will grant you that those parents seeking out Charlotte's Web and a few other strains are an exception). Smoking introduces all kinds of other agents that are problematic  - it's simply not a healthy way to deliver medication or a dietary supplement. I think you could probably sprinkle acetalsalicylic acid on your rolling tobacco to relieve a headache, but normal people don't do that.

        I think marijuana should be legalized and heavily regulated for private use in your own home. I believe that good research will show that there are problems with even light use, but they might well not be aversive enough to outweigh the benefit of the recreational high that occasional use provides. I think heavy use will prove to be problematic, but most likely not as problematic as heavy use of alcohol.

        The current medical marijuana market is a big joke and generally only serves as a cover for those recreational users who don't want to have  criminal record. If we really want to help people that research shows could be assisted, then resins and oils would be made available that could be ingested, vaporized or topically applied. There are some, but they are not properly regulated or tested as of yet.
         

        •  What about Solvay's Marinol® (dronabinol)? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RMForbes

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          Also, I think a lot of people with serious medical problems would take issue with your contention that

          The current medical marijuana market is a big joke and generally only serves as a cover for those recreational users who don't want to have [a] criminal record.

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

          by lotlizard on Sat May 17, 2014 at 01:46:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  .... (0+ / 0-)
          If fact, the most recent studies are turning up some concerns for even light smokers.
          Got links?
          I won't agree at all that smoking is a good delivery method for any type of palliative agent or even for a recreational agent.
          The big advantage of smoking is the immediacy of effect, which leads to precision in titration. (Not to mention ease of use.) In other words, you put the pipe down when you're good, and you don't have to fumble around guessing at dosage like with edibles, which take 2 hours to take effect. (But you knew that already, didn't you?)

          And I simply don't understand the italicized part. It works just fine as recreational agent. I mean, I get that smoking itself is not necessarily healthy, but neither is alcohol, and I don't see anyone campaigning for a repeal of the 21st Amendment.

          RMForbes downthread notes that smoking weed has not been shown to cause lung cancer the way tobacco does.

          I think you could probably sprinkle acetalsalicylic acid on your rolling tobacco to relieve a headache, but normal people don't do that.
          What the fuck kind of ridiculous straw man argument is that?

          I guess that might have sounded like a good joke in your head, but it's borderline insulting (not to mention irrelevant and gratuitous) and makes me wonder whether you're really participating in this thread in good faith.

          If we really want to help people that research shows could be assisted, then resins and oils would be made available that could be ingested, vaporized or topically applied.
          Lotlizard beat me to it, but Marinol has been around for a while and is Schedule III.

          I forget who originally made this comparison, but it's like the wizards at the DEA are saying that oranges are bad for you, but vitamin C that's artifically synthesized in a lab is A-OK!

          You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

          by nota bene on Sat May 17, 2014 at 05:48:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  No, even in light social use the cannabinoid drugs (4+ / 0-)

      found in cannabis resins are still less detrimental and more beneficial than light use of alcohol. There has been enough historical evidence to prove that truth. But I do agree that we need to do more research on the benefits or problems with cannabinoid use. However, the honest research done so far lean far more to the beneficial side.

      Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

      by RMForbes on Fri May 16, 2014 at 05:39:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Light to social use" LOL. In Brave new World... (0+ / 0-)

      just a tad of alcohol in the nutrients for the worker fetuses did the trick.

    •  Light Social Use (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nota bene

      You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, yet you're "certain". People like you have been polluting discourse about drugs so long that everyone knows the discourse you validate is sewage.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Fri May 16, 2014 at 11:09:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you are wedded to your weed.... (0+ / 0-)

        I know I'm not going to change your mind or opinion - I really don't want to. I'm conservative in how I interpret research - there are far too many studies that are either misinterpreted by the public simply proven to be wrong when a good large scale study is done.

        I just don't agree with those that say that pot is harmless or is just as safe as alcohol. Depends on the amount for alcohol (we know that excessive amounts are extremely problematic or even deadly) and the type for cannabis (has been shown as an effective palliative agent for those with certain maladies, but not necessarily for those who are otherwise healthy).

        •  Just Don't Agree (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not "wedded to my weed".

          You on the other hand are clearly wedded to your ignorance and prejudice.

          You know nothing. Yet you proclaim as if you're some kind of expert. Pipe down. Pun intended - you're going on like you're high.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Fri May 16, 2014 at 11:39:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, we can disagree... (0+ / 0-)

            However, I really don't see what is so controversial about my stance - even for this place. In a nutshell...

            1. Marijuana should be legalized and heavily regulated for use in the privacy of your own home.

            2. Research and development will most probably show that certain cannabis oils, resins and extracts are very beneficial for the treatment of certain maladies and ailments. They should be tested, regulated and covered by health insurance as are any other beneficial drugs.

            3. A glass of wine a day is quite beneficial to the majority of otherwise healthy individuals.

            4. Smoking of marijuana (or of any substance) is probably unhealthy, although the exact extent is yet unknown. It might well be that the recreational high obtained is worth dealing with the downsides of smoking. Smoking of marijuana has not been shown to be beneficial to otherwise healthy individuals (other than the acknowledged recreational high that can be obtained).

            I honestly don't see what is disagreeable about what I have stated. If you want to use it, fine. Just don't go around saying that it is completely harmless - that's the biggest part I have problems with.

            •  Research that cannabis may actually cure cancer? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RMForbes

              You're an organic chemist and have never heard anything about this?

              http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/...

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Sat May 17, 2014 at 01:51:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Research that cannabis may actually cure cancer? (0+ / 0-)

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Sat May 17, 2014 at 02:00:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Apologize for the double post - there was a glitch (0+ / 0-)

              … and I was getting an error message (something about a "perl script") the first time I posted the comment.

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Sat May 17, 2014 at 02:04:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No problem... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotlizard

                I've gotten weird messages before - sometimes after writing a large post that I think is lost - and then it magically appears.

                I'm quite aware of the studies and anecdotal results that seem to indicate that agents in marijuana might have prophylactic or cancer fighting effects. This is certainly an area that merits more study. However, the exact mechanisms for this aren't understood. Some have speculated that cannabinoid agents might accelerate cell apoptosis. If this is selective for cells affected by carcinogenesis, then this could be a very good thing. However, if it is not selective, then it is problematic. I doubt that any healthy individual would subject themselves to chemotherapy on the hunch that it might eliminate any hiding mutated cells in their system. This is where I say that more work needs to be done. I think I have been quite clear that I believe that various agents in cannabis might prove to be very beneficial, but I don't believe that smoking marijuana in itself will prove to be a good thing.

                I wanted to answer another comment that you made concerning your observation on medical marijuana. I agree completely that many people who get no relief from other therapies do get critical relief from their problems by smoking pot. I just have a problem when we funnel people to smoking something to get relief. We should be at a point where we can prescribe the appropriate extracts to get the results that so many people need. Also, I would have to argue that the majority of people with a medical marijuana card in many states are actually recreational users, but this fact should not be used to stop those who need it for relief - unfortunately they don't have other good alternatives in many cases.

                Marinol and other extracts and synthetics are a very good step - we need so much more work here. Also, acceptance by the population and by doctors needs to increase - too many would still rather just smoke it and I feel that is simply not the best way for safe, efficacious delivery.

                Also, I will again state that I am very much for legalized use of marijuana in the privacy of your own home. If cigarettes are legal - and we know the mess they cause -  how can we keep recreational marijuana illegal when it is at least many, many times safer and causes fewer problems.

            •  Nothing is completely harmless but the cannabinoid (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nota bene, DocGonzo, OrganicChemist

              drugs found in cannabis resin are about as close as you can get. The LD50 of cannabinoids is over 40,000 times the effective dose. The LD50 of alcohol, on the other hand, is around 10 times the effective dose.

              Yes, smoking anything may not be wise but in the UCLA study on cannabis use actually commissioned to prove a causal link between smoking cannabis and cancer, found no such link. In fact, even heavy cannabis smokers developed serious lung disorders at the same rate as the control group that smoked nothing but lived in the same general area and were exposed to the same environmental pollution. The group that smoked both cannabis and tobacco also seemed to suffer lower incidences of lung disease than tobacco smokers alone. Plus, using a vaporizer eliminates over 95% of the dangerous chemicals and hot gasses found in smoke.

              Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

              by RMForbes on Sat May 17, 2014 at 09:56:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Just Don't Agree (0+ / 0-)

              I don't know about "controversial". But you have said that there isn't research showing "light social use" isn't harmful, even compared to alcohol, when that is just false. And you said that you "just don't agree" with research that does exist.

              Now you're going on about how marijuana isn't beneficial to healthy users, beyond the recreational high. What does that even mean? What possible benefit could it bring beyond that? Why isn't that enough?

              More importantly, who are you to say? You're totally unqualified, you're uninformed, and you don't take pushback from people who point that out. Your arrogance is disconcerting.

              But you, and far too many others like you, pollute the public discourse with insistent ignorance - that causes serious problems for other people. At the very least you could harbor your doubts without presenting them as if they're facts.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Sat May 17, 2014 at 07:29:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  this kind of rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

          ("wedded to your weed") makes me think that you have zero actual direct experience with MJ itself.

          People have known that the drug warriors are Full. Of. Shit. for decades now.

          You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

          by nota bene on Sat May 17, 2014 at 05:51:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Early on in my career... (0+ / 0-)

            I was involved in various projects that isolated and characterized various agents found in cannabis. I also did work in other areas of pharmaceuticals when grant money for cannabis research dried up.

            If someone is going to call me an unqualified know-nothing polluting the public discourse, then I 'm really going to believe that they are pretty heavily invested in their point of view.

            As far as direct experience, if you mean using it - no I really have never been a smoker. However, I don't think that needs to be a prerequisite for researching or commenting on it. I'm sure that many of the researchers that worked on cigarettes never smoked.

            This isn't political for me - I'm just trying to understand what the real story is. Earlier in my career, I was very much against legalization. The studies coming out were pretty negative and I really wasn't for yet another recreational agent that was going to cause a slew of problems. I've changed my mind on that now. Legalization is fine with me at this point, but I'm not gonna agree that it is harmless or that it is a safe as light use of alcohol.

            If you believe that scientific debate pollutes the public discourse, then there are some wonderful people who would love to have tea with you that hate what a funny guy on a funny ship found out on some funny islands about 170 years ago.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site