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View Diary: Republican frontrunner for Senate in Montana wants schools to teach creationism (193 comments)

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  •  It's all arrogance and condescension though (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim, Ahianne, Smoh, Arfeeto, Wee Mama

    I mean, evolution is a scientific fact.  It's been proven scientifically.  It just IS.  Creationism flies in the face of scientific fact.  It has no place in schools:  Institutions that are supposed to be dedicated to fact.

    But belief in God is another matter altogether.  It has never been scientifically PROVEN  to be  either true or false.  The preponderance of evidence IS on the side of God not existing, but that's just not proof.  Scientifically, both the idea that God exists and the idea that God doesn't exist are theories.

    But a LOT of self-proclaimed liberal atheists talk down to anyone who believes in God.   And while I, personally absolutely hate the obnoxious way that "true believers" and other religious zealots preach and proselytize, I absolutely HATE the way those liberal atheists do their own brand of arrogant (and illogical) proselytizing.  

    Lack of proof does not equal proof of lack.  Science is advanced by search and research - always with an open mind.  No zealot - either religious or atheist can even be laughably considered to have an open mind.  

    I really DO understand that the arrogance and condescension many atheist liberal display is simply a reaction to the obnoxious religious zealots, but liberals are supposedly open to ideas - they should at least be tolerant of them and really, an arrogant and obnoxious reaction to an obnoxious idea or person is just stupidity as a reaction to stupidity.

    •  My point was completely undermined by the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, Wee Mama

      poster a few down who got HR'd by many posters.

      You're at least civil and thoughtful in your discourse.

      •  Thanks. I DO try. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, Wee Mama, ColoTim, smartalek

        No discussion or debate can be fruitful or even educational if it devolves to insults and/or a shouting match.  I think a great many of the problems in the world, in this country and even between the political parties would be lessened greatly if people just treated each other with respect.

        •  Or the Golden Rule - not he who has the gold rules (0+ / 0-)

          but the one that talks about treating others as you would like to be treated yourself.  These days lots of folks project how they believe the other person is, often projecting their meanness and shortcomings onto the other person and then attack those points because they believe that's how the other person is.  I usually see that from Republicans but they're very fearful now feeling backed into a corner.

    •  I agree with your points (4+ / 0-)

      Though as a Christian I might argue about this "preponderance of evidence", or even whether "proof" is something that even makes sense when talking about God.

      This bothers me about fundamentalists: religion is supposed to be about faith, which is belief in the absence of certainty.  Jesus delighted in tripping up the people who were most certain of their relationship with God: Pharisees, scribes, "the wise".  But the fundamentalists thump on the Bible (and their interpretation of it) as if it's meant to be some sort of proof that they're right, as if that's even the point.

      It's like two people playing cards.  The fundamentalist smugly lies down a 10, J, Q, and K of hearts, and an ace of diamonds, and declares "Royal Flush!"
      His companion says, "First of all, a royal flush has to be all the same suit.  And second of all, we're playing Go Fish."

    •  We talk about outmoded or incorrect theories (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, DQKennard

      all the time in Science classes. I don't see why Creationism, just like Lamarckism, shouldn't be the subject of critical discussion in schools. A pretty big portion of the American public believes in Creationism. Using the classroom to delve into the twisted internal logic of Creationism and explaining how it doesn't accord with verifiable facts doesn't seem to be a problem to me. The problem is that Science is under attack and is being unnecessarily defensive. I support critical discussion of Creationism in schools as a way of talking about the scientific method, of how we know what we do about the world, and the limits to knowledge.

      Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

      by Anne Elk on Sat May 17, 2014 at 10:01:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Creationism or ID (0+ / 0-)

        has no place being taught as SCIENCE.  If the discussion you want to have takes place, try a comparative religion class (we had those when I was in high school).  

        We don't teach kids that 2+2=4 and then turn around and teach them that 2+2=6, assuming that they will make the correct decision as to which is the right answer.  We teach them the right answer to start with.

        The same thing applies to creationism or intelligent design.

        "There are times when even normal men must spit in their hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

        by rwgate on Sat May 17, 2014 at 03:14:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You missed the point. (0+ / 0-)

          Maybe you should read what I wrote. Science is not only about the distribution of things we agree are facts. It's about a way of investigating the world and investigating even unsound claims about the world is an entirely reasonable approach to teaching science. In my view, one could easily take a creationist claim and subject it to the same scrutiny we do everything else. Dogma from any source is bad science.

          Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

          by Anne Elk on Sat May 17, 2014 at 06:10:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Scientifically, neither is a theory (0+ / 0-)

      Both ideas are random speculation, much like ideas about the existence of ghosts, FSMs, and Qipu.

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