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View Diary: Front Pagers Hate Religious People. (401 comments)

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  •  I totally agree (6+ / 0-)

    The anti-Catholic diaries are the ones that first got my attention but that's made me notice how generally anti-religious the whole tone is here.  It's not fair to the hundreds of millions of Americans who claim a religious faith. They're not all wacky wingnuts.  Even the ones who are fundamentalists often have more nuanced views than you'd ever know from reading the commentary here.  It is absolutely impossible to win any statewide or national election without a significant number of religious voters.  

    That's why I shake my head at the Catholic bashing because you can hardly find a blue state on the map that doesn't have a significant percentage of Catholic voters.  The blue states are pretty much where they are and the states Democrats want to turn blue are those where they are assuming an increase in Hispanics, also mostly Catholic.

    •  Religion and progressivism can coexist.... (12+ / 0-)

      .....so can deafness and the ability to write great music. See Beethoven.

      The point is that faith does not contribute anything essential to progressivism. Look at all the "Christians" who are racist, for instance. You can say they aren't "true" Christians, but the god whom they and all other Christians believe in seems to be quite at ease with it. In fact, god doesn't do squat. Everything that is done against social evils is done by human beings.

      You can disbelieve in gods quite cheerfully and still be a very moral person. This isn't true of reason-based thought systems such as science. You can say that you disbelieve in gravity, but gravity will whack you as soon as you step out of a upper-story window.

      Does this mean that all religion is evil? No. It means that it is impotent. You can justify good by faith; you can justify evil by faith. It can do nothing that people have not already agreed to do. That's not the way any belief with a firm foundation in facts operates.

      And this being the case, those who promote religious faith as a positive and progressive force can expect a little gentle mockery, at least. We can keep it more or less civil, but when you speak nonsense, don't blame us for at least smiling to ourselves.

      This is the landscape that we understand, -
      And till the principle of things takes root,
      How shall examples move us from our calm?

      (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

      by sagesource on Fri May 16, 2014 at 02:38:10 PM PDT

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      •  I don't give a damn where you smile (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        taffers

        It would be fine with me if no one mentioned religion at all on this site.  Its purpose is partisan.  Its purpose is to elect Democrats.  

        I don't need your snide bullshit remarks at all.  I really don't.  I don't need to know that you sneer at me because I am a believer.  I don't need to know that.  I don't.

        Just STFU. That would be fine with me.

        I'm not trying to talk about religion or convert you or to put religion in the public square.

        But don't expect me to back off either.  If you are going to diss me because I am a person of faith well then we have nothing to talk about period.

        And that is not how you build coalitions or hold them together.

        So stay the hell out of my face with your crap about nonsense.

        I take my faith seriously.  It's not a joke.  

        So if you can't say anything nice, shut up.

          •  It's pretty passive agressive (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lujane

            To on the one hand ridicule the one single thing that's made the biggest positive difference in a person's  life...and then to expect one to not get upset about it. Please let's not pretend that sagesorce wasn't being hostile and demeaning to people of faith in his comment above. I'm not personally offended because the comment lacked understanding of the subject, but I can certainly see why greenbell, or any person of faith would be.

            "Because we are all connected...."

            by Shawn87 on Sat May 17, 2014 at 11:32:44 AM PDT

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        •  There's an old proverb.... (12+ / 0-)

          "If one throws salt at you, it will not sting, except that you are raw."

          Back in the good old days, defenders of religion argued its truth from what they believed were facts. I've got several interesting examples of that in my library. One was written by a Catholic priest in the 1950s. Its tone is calm throughout. Obviously the author was convinced that on both spiritual and rational grounds, his arguments were correct. He doesn't ever feel the need to insult non-believers, or howl that what they assert is "bullshit."

          You, on the other hand.....

          Still, it's a free country. Believe in anything you wish. Just don't expect everyone to keep silent when you promote your beliefs in public. For that demand, you have neither the power nor the right.

          This is the landscape that we understand, -
          And till the principle of things takes root,
          How shall examples move us from our calm?

          (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

          by sagesource on Fri May 16, 2014 at 03:32:05 PM PDT

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        •  I hear you, but in this venue it's best to try (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass, Catte Nappe, Smoh, Wee Mama

          turning the other cheek.  Which is not to say I'm the best exemplar of that ideal.

          •  Well they count on you doing that (0+ / 0-)

            I also recall Peter being intimidated into denying his faith and they count on that too.  And at some point they need to get back what they dish out and I think that is the place commonmass is coming from.  It's just become offensive.

            I feel no need whatever to explain my faith, to justify it, to argue with self-appointed pseudo intellectuals.  That's their game.  They trash believers.  They want to you to respond and then they want to ridicule anything and everything you say as "nonsense" when you don't want any argument at all.  You believe and that's enough.  You shouldn't have to defend your faith over and over and over again.  So you can stay away from the faith trashing diaries and give them a free pass on their bigotry.

            I did that on Easter.  I thought whoa I'm not getting into it with the bigot bloggers today, but sometimes you have to say what is this about?  We have country with tens of millions of believers in the Democratic Party and we to come here to have this shit thrown at us.

            I mean since they don't believe in hell, they won't mind if I tell them to go there.

            •  I don't trash believers. I don't expect (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Richard Villiers

              to get trashed by believers, but I do. If believers believe that non-believers should STFU, I respectfully request the same of the believers.

              What you give out, you had better be able to take exactly the same right back. If you can dish it out but can't take it, then STFU already.

              Leave me alone to believe what I believe (only belief I have is that the only sin is to deliberately hurt someone else) and I'll gladly give it right back atcha!

              You start proclaiming you are a believer (always wondered what in) and you can expect to get an earful of why belief is nothing more than BS propagated by such as Jim Jones or David Koresh or other such scam artists and their duped followers. I'm not a fan.

              Mostly, also, I am not a hater.

              I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

              by woolibaar on Fri May 16, 2014 at 05:18:06 PM PDT

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              •  Whoa! You do trash believers. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                greenbell, Shawn87, Timaeus

                I was ready to engage with your point, although it would have included a question of where on this site you have been trashed by believers or told to STFU. But it became obvious there was no room for discussion. You do trash believers. Across the board. All of them. Sorry to tell you, but given this, mostly you are a hater.

                you can expect to get an earful of why belief is nothing more than BS propagated by such as Jim Jones or David Koresh or other such scam artists and their duped followers.

                “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

                by Catte Nappe on Fri May 16, 2014 at 05:39:25 PM PDT

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                •  You missed the first part - (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Richard Villiers

                  namely, You start proclaiming you are a believer - you don't get in my face explaining why your beliefs are more important than mine and you will get back exactly what you give me. Nothing.

                  If you are someone who doesn't need to tell me how wonderful you are because you are saved, (you are known by your actions, not your words) then I won't come down on you. Keep your Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Satanic whatever beliefs to yourself unless I ask.

                  I wouldn't buy a car from someone named "Honest . . ." and I wouldn't trust anyone who proclaims how Christian they are. As a preacher's daughter, I met more than a few such zealots and learned early on, the most ardent proclaimer of rectitude was usually the worst sinner who became "saved". Made me run away from all religious proclaimers.

                  In other words, live your beliefs, don't make the rest of us listen to how wonderful you are.

                  I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

                  by woolibaar on Fri May 16, 2014 at 07:33:33 PM PDT

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              •  You sound pretty "hater-y" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus, Lujane

                For someone who says they're not. Greenbell lost his temper with someone who demeaned his beliefs as "impotent" among other things. No one here, in this thread said anyone who doesn't believe in God should STFU. Just to have a little respect for something they may not understand fully. When I say there's a lack of understanding, I mean the process and experiences by which this change in our lives came about. I've seen many atheist diaries here on kos. I read them because I'm curious. I comment in them occasionally. But respectfully. Not to try to change anyone's mind. I would love a dialogue instead of the kneejerk reactions we tend to have here. It would be nice if we could find our similarities, rather than demanding respect while NOT respecting one another. We ARE all Democrats, (mostly)and we are all working for a common cause. I'm a Democrat BECAUSE I'm a Christian. Ironically, I was a Republican before I found my faith. Way back in the early 90's...Go figure.

                "Because we are all connected...."

                by Shawn87 on Sat May 17, 2014 at 11:54:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Good comment. I especially appreciated your (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Shawn87, Lujane

                  point that you were a Republican before you found your Christian faith.

                  Myself, I've always been a Democrat, and have never, ever voted for a non-Democrat.  But I'm like you in that my fervor for Democratic Party policy has steadily increased as my Christian faith has also increased over the years.

    •  Very important second paragraph, making (8+ / 0-)

      points I've often argued.  Catholics are the single largest electoral bloc (about 25% of the U.S. population and growing) and they vote for Democrats more often than not.  (I maintain that's true notwithstanding arguments from some that it doesn't make sense to consider Catholics as a single bloc.)

      There was a recent wonderful frontpage post that included a lot of information on a recent big survey comparing Evangelicals and Catholics on a wide range of social and economic issues.  The Catholics were way to the left on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, especially the economic issues.

      Catholics are a fundamental and indispensable part of the Democratic base, so I'd like to see this community restrain the Catholic bashing a bit.

      But it doesn't really matter, since most Catholics quickly learn to just avoid the Catholic-bashing diaries, and those who enthusiastically put all of them on the reclist are actually a small minority here.

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