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View Diary: Obama plans to keep 9,800 U.S. troops in Afghanistan after end of 2014, bringing most home by 2016 (260 comments)

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  •  Did you criticize Bush (12+ / 0-)

    from the "cheap seats"?

    Tyrion Lannister: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."

    by psychodrew on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:21:08 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Bush wasn't withdrawing down troops (4+ / 0-)

      When he was in office... So that kind of makes your point moot.

      Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

      by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:30:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He signed SOFA (7+ / 0-)

        google it

        I'm a Saltine American

        by LaEscapee on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:32:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  DId you miss the part where I said (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cherish0708, TheLizardKing, Matt Z

          When he was in office? SOFA didn't take effect until after he got out.

          Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

          by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:33:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  By the way, he just signed it. SOFA was actually (7+ / 0-)

          influenced by presidential candidate Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign.... If there are individuals here who believe Bush wanted to end the war in Iraq with a deadline, when this was a major criticism of candidate Obama during the '08 campaign by the Bush administration, they haven't been paying attention....

          •  Thank you that's what my point was. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NedSparks, TheLizardKing, Matt Z

            There's no examples of Bush ever trying to draw down anything. He just signed stuff that was to take place after he left office.

            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

            by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 10:22:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Naturally there are crickets chirping now (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doc2, Matt Z, doroma

            After you and I both brought up that point....

            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

            by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 10:51:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was laughing too hard to reply. (5+ / 0-)

              Bush doesn't count because....Bush.

              LOL

              Tyrion Lannister: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."

              by psychodrew on Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:34:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Umm no (0+ / 0-)

                If Bush didnt actually draw down troops when he was in office you cant attack someone for not criticizing Obama on the matter to the same point that they did Bush. Your point is that we should have been talking about something Bush didnt do? Nice attempt at revisionist history there.

                Bush didnt do anything but pass the buck to Obama. Which is a fact. You cant argue against that in support of Bush.

                Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:54:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You have no proof that Bush would (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Matt Z, doroma

                Have stuck to that agreement. Absolutely none. You have no example of him actually taking the action of drawing down troops.

                Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:57:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  and Obama gets credit for SOFA... (5+ / 0-)

                that's some funny stuff. not to mention he tried to keep troops there past the date.

                maybe it was a scratch your back for mine thing what with the non-investigations into torture, etc...

                "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 12:14:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The point we are talking about (0+ / 0-)

                  Is that Obama ended the war because he is taking the troops out. Bush simply signed an agreement that he knew he would not be responsible for upholding. Theres really no way to argue against that with facts.

                  And this diary is not about the Iraq war so why was SOFA brought up?

                  Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                  by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 01:04:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You cant claim that Bush (0+ / 0-)

                  Would have would have been able to adhere to that agreement. Its also unfair to criticize Obama for not holding to an agreement that was signed before he was in office.

                  Would you like to argue that the Bush administration knew exactly what they were doing and signed that agreement following that? Bc that seems to be the case your making,

                  It would also be nice to stay on afghanistan which is the topic of the diary.

                  Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                  by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 01:08:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  well, the comparison is being made cuz... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LaEscapee

                    leaving troops behind was something Obama wanted to do in Iraq but as per the SOFA and the Iraqi gov't he could not.   so he grudgingly pulled them all out due to the SOFA.

                    we won't know what Bush would've done, and you can't say what that would've been with any kind of certainty, though i think Bush would've tried to do the same thing Obama tried to do.

                    i would not consider leaving almost 10k troops 'ending' a war. the term non-combatant is a fig leaf for a big military presence left in what is still a war zone and will be for a while.

                    "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                    by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:14:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He didn't grudgingly pull them out (0+ / 0-)

                      Your proof that he grudgingly pulled them out is where? Because everything I've read said he was following the advice of the military. Considering that Obama has never served in the military I would think that wise. You are blaming Obama for this to blame him.

                      Obama has drawn down the troops in Iraq. Bush did not. That's basically the end of the story.

                      Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                      by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:18:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Also since you don't know what Bush would (0+ / 0-)

                        Do you can't make a comparison. Unless you think Bush's intentions are/were better than Obamas. In that case feel free to admit it. Basically I'm done with this conversation that is totally unbased in reality and has nothing to do with Afghanistan.

                        Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                        by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:19:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  no, but you accused me of this when i said no such (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Choco8, BradyB

                          thing:

                          You cant claim that Bush (0+ / 0-)
                          Would have would have been able to adhere to that agreement.
                          so you inserted 'what Bush might've done' into the argument.

                          and Obama tried to leave troops in Iraq too; Iraq would not let him and guarantee immunity of them iirc. and as we've seen really, there's no reason we should've left any in Iraq.

                          i don't care who Obama is listening to about it; the buck stops with him and he makes the choices.

                          "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                          by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:33:00 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The comment that generated this discussion (0+ / 0-)

                            Made that point. Maybe you meant to have a different discussion. I'm participating in the one that is actually taking place.

                            Did you mean to reply to someone else or something?

                            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                            by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:41:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i was having a discussion with you, even... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LaEscapee

                            blockquoting your words. keep up.

                            "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:42:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I stated truth (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, BradyB

                            after reading a lie. Sorry that fact hurts.

                            I'm a Saltine American

                            by LaEscapee on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:45:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You didn't state the truth (0+ / 0-)

                            You made an argument that had nothing to do with the conversation taking place and then continued to make yourself look foolish.

                            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                            by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:17:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because you responded to a conversation (0+ / 0-)

                            That was already taking place without reading the beginning of it. The conversation was not about what you are arguing. I responded to someone else, and then you defended Laescapee, who is talking about the Iraq war and SOFA, which has nothing to do with the original conversation. That's why you don't understand what I'm saying to you.

                            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                            by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:20:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh i understand what you're saying. i don't agree (0+ / 0-)

                            with it whatsoever, so it's more convenient for you to now claim the convo we've been having was the wrong convo.

                            cheers!

                            "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:55:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  All one has to do is look (0+ / 0-)

                            At the comment I originally responded to in this thread, to see that you and Laescapee changed the topic completely. And look at the diary which is about Afghanistan, not Iraq, to figure out that you are off topic. You and Laescapee changed the conversation. I didn't. But people can read and they aren't stupid.

                            Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                            by freakofsociety on Wed May 28, 2014 at 04:29:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Are you saying the SOFA was George Bush's (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  freakofsociety

                  idea?

                  In March of 2007, President Bush was still against a specific deadline to pull out U.S. troops from Iraq, and reacted angrily when Democrats snuck in an end of Iraq war deadline provision in a spending bill:

                  President Bush slammed Democrats on Friday after the House narrowly approved a supplemental war spending bill that includes an August 31, 2008, deadline for combat troops to leave Iraq.

                  "Today, a narrow majority in the House of Representatives abdicated its responsibility by passing a war spending bill that has no chance of becoming law, and brings us no closer to getting our troops the resources they need," Bush said about an hour after the vote.

                  Snip

                  "We all want our troops to come home -- when the job is done," said Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas.
                  "We want to win. Internationally announcing our timelines for withdrawal literally hands the enemy our war plan," Johnson said. "What world superpower would do such a thing?"

                  This was the Bush administration and Republicans fighting against announcing a date to pull out of Iraq in March of 2007.

                  In January of 2007 candidate Obama offered a plan to withdraw troops from Iraq.

                  The Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is mounting a direct challenge to George Bush's plan to send more troops to Iraq.

                  The senator from Illinois, who is Hillary Clinton's most formidable challenger for the Democratic nomination, yesterday introduced a bill that would see US combat troops withdrawn from Iraq by spring 2008.

                  "It is important at this point that Congress offer specific constructive approaches to what's proven to be a foreign policy disaster," Mr Obama said in an interview with the Associated Press, "because we've got too much at stake to simply stand on the sidelines and criticise."

                  Mr Obama would cap troop numbers in Iraq at around 130,000, the level that existed in early January when the president announced another 21,500 more troops for Iraq.

                  Snip

                  While Mr Obama's bill is unlikely to be approved, it adds to the weight of congressional opposition to Mr Bush's troop "surge". The Senate is expected to vote next week on a resolution opposing the troop increase. Although non-binding, such a vote is seen as politically damaging to Mr Bush, underlining his political isolation.

                  The Bush administration was forced to act by Senator Obama, despite the fact that Obama wanted to leave a residual force as he's announcing today....
                  •  ok so many things. back then, a lot of Dems were (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    psychodrew, BradyB, triv33

                    calling for withdrawal dates and timelines - Obama was but one Senator.

                    also - had to double check and it seems the Guardian has it interesting seeing that Obama didn't even announce his candidacy til Feb 10th 2007. and at that point, Hillary was already in (Jan 20th) as was John Edwards, and at least Hillary was considered the much more formidable candidate back then - Obama was thought of as more of a long shot. so the typical 'bring the troops home' noises that Congress was making in January 2007 likely had little to no bearing on Bush and al-Maliki's negotiations.

                    cuz you do know that Congress has little to do with a SOFA right? a SOFA is not a treaty, and therefore doesn't require Congress's approval. a SOFA is an agreement on forces between 2 countries and Iraq had been making noises for a long time about getting our troops out of their country. i think *that* had a lot more bearing on the SOFA than some longer shot presidential candidate shortly before he even officially announced his candidacy. i don't think Obama was on the GOP radar all that much at that point.

                    so no, Bush was not forced to act by Obama, but that's a really nice narrative to make Obama sound really really good. and in light f his presidency, he needs everything he can to help him look really good at this point. total understand the need to believe that narrative though. it's just a bit short of reality though.

                    "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                    by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:51:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Obama had mystical presidential powers before (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poligirl, BradyB

                      he was even elected.

                      LOL

                      Odd that he seems weaker now than when he was a might senator from Illinois.

                      Tyrion Lannister: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."

                      by psychodrew on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:57:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  before he had even declared for the presidency (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        psychodrew

                        even, lol...

                        "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                        by poligirl on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:12:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  What seriously? (0+ / 0-)

                        Did you even read what was posted there? It's clear to me that none of you actually want to discuss what actually happened. You've clearly proven that today and took away whatever thoughts I had left about your ability to engage in a serious discussion without blaming Obama for something. All of you were wrong, own up to it.

                        Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                        by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:15:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Go to a pro bush site (0+ / 0-)

                        And take your friends with you please. It's clear what your agenda is now.

                        Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

                        by freakofsociety on Tue May 27, 2014 at 07:16:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Who says Congress had anything to do with SOFA? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BarackStarObama, freakofsociety

                      I think you need to read again. The article cited says nothing about SOFA. Secondly, Barack Obama was a Senator and could propose drawdown resolutions to Congress it has no bearing on his being a candidate....

                      •  no, i was just using that to underscore that (0+ / 0-)

                        Obama had little to no bearing on the SOFA, in spite of your arguing that, what did you say? oh yeah:

                        The Bush administration was forced to act by Senator Obama, despite the fact that Obama wanted to leave a residual force as he's announcing today....
                        my comment was a rebuttal to that.

                        "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                        by poligirl on Wed May 28, 2014 at 09:13:00 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  And another blatant lie (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poligirl

            fomented by the true believers.

            Read it and the reasons why

            Details of the draft agreements began to leak in early 2008, when U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan C. Crocker, testifying before Congress, confirmed two separate accords were on the table. The first, a status of forces agreement, called a SOFA, would codify legal protections for U.S. military personnel and property in Iraq. Such agreements already govern U.S. military conduct in other long-term deployment zones--including Germany, Japan, and South Korea--and the administration has characterized talks for a SOFA in Iraq as a hopeful step toward stability. The final version shows significant concessions from the U.S. side. For instance, the Bush administration agreed to a total withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of 2011. The draft and final versions also called for additional restrictions on how U.S. troops conducted missions, and required a pullout from Iraqi urban areas by July 2009.

            The second accord, referred to as a "strategic framework agreement," was broadly aimed at addressing issues not covered by the SOFA, including those outlined in a "declaration of principles" document signed by President Bush and Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki in November 2007. Among these issues: the U.S. role in defending Iraq from internal and external threats; U.S. support of political reconciliation; and U.S. efforts to confront terrorist groups. But the final version of the strategic framework focuses primarily on shaping future cooperation on cultural, energy, economic, environmental, and other issues of mutual interest.

            Negotiations for a status of forces agreement with Iraq were initiated to replace the UN mandate authorizing foreign forces set to expire at the end of 2008. Several months after the U.S.-led toppling of Saddam Hussein's government in 2003, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 1511, officially recognizing the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) and authorizing a multinational force to bring stability to the country. But included in the resolution was the requirement that the security mandate be reviewed one year from implementation. Every year since, the United Nations has extended the mandate at the request of the Iraqi government. But in late 2007, Maliki asked the Security Council to extend the mandate "for the last time." Expiration of the mandate also will officially end Iraq's designation as a threat to international peace and security--a UN distinction that dates to 1990.

            Obama gets no credit, he had no choice

            I'm a Saltine American

            by LaEscapee on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:35:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The Cheap Seats (6+ / 0-)

      Where the 99%'s sit.

      Meanwhile, in a Quiet Room somewhere..

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