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View Diary: EPA's McCarthy gives aggressive speech on emissions rule. Critics see rule as too much or not enough (105 comments)

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  •  In this coal mining towns (18+ / 0-)

    There are lots of coal miners who might vote Democratic, but they are more concerned with eking out a bare living than they are with arguments among college educated folks who can afford the luxury of thinking about the future.

    If Grimes were to sound like a Sierra Club leader, people would go with McConnell.  A known sleaze could be in a better position to be helpful.  

    Would a corrupt and lying sonofabitch be better for their interests than an honest, intelligent  and decent person?

    Could be.  Grimes can continue the fight rather than lose by making the perfect the enemy of the good.

    She is not looking to win a dorm room debate here.  She is looking to get elected in districts that vote Democratic if they don't see their economic interests hurt by it.  

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:21:31 AM PDT

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    •  Gotta make a living, destroying the planet (10+ / 0-)

      Let's make a Green New Deal, putting people to work restoring and preserving the environment.

      Utterly unrealistic, I know. And yet, as a party we should articulate that as a long-term goal. Or we'll never get there.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:30:54 AM PDT

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      •  Absolutely (10+ / 0-)

        Phase One: shut down every coal mine and coal processing plant and coal fired electric plant and re-deploy the displaced workers into infrastructure projects and green energy jobs financed by the federal government, guaranteeing steady pay for 5 years.

        If anybody thinks that a coal miner making $15/hour wouldn't be happy doing almost anything else for $15/hour he's smoking crack.

        Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

        by The Termite on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:35:18 AM PDT

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        •  This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Termite, YucatanMan, Eric Nelson

          Those green energy jobs can be to build-out solar roadways and other grid-tied, storage-backed renewable generation -- scheduled in tandem with the rapid phased shutdown of the coal industry, for an expeditious smooth transition.

          #3: ensure network neutrality; #2: ensure electoral integrity; #1: ensure ecosystemic sustainability.

          by ivote2004 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 02:15:44 PM PDT

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        •  Well (0+ / 0-)
          Phase One: shut down every coal mine and coal processing plant and coal fired electric plant and re-deploy the displaced workers into infrastructure projects and green energy jobs financed by the federal government, guaranteeing steady pay for 5 years.

          If anybody thinks that a coal miner making $15/hour wouldn't be happy doing almost anything else for $15/hour he's smoking crack.

          If anyone thinks coal miners aren't going to be skeptical of the government coming in and telling them to get up and move for a new awesome job we've created for you, they're smoking crack.

          It's not a question of whether or not they want to do anything else, it's a question of whether or not they want someone from another part of the country who doesn't understand them to tell them to do something else.

          You can't just put a coal miner to work in a solar power plant, you can't do that. It doesn't require the same skill set

          •  Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan, ivote2004

            ...not to do this, just as there are plenty of reasons not to do anything.

            I am highly sympathetic toward coal miners as I am toward labor of any kind, but we need to contend with facts. The fact is that we are about four decades past the point where we had any reason to keep burning coal, and we have to cut that shit out now. There is no reason that men need to continue to die underground trying to bring black shit up that we can set on fire. This is 2014 and coal is a primitive industry. No change is without victims, and the coal industry is a polluter unlike any other. It's time.

            Now given all that, is it really so far fetched to think that these workers could be retrained and redeployed somehow? Is it really a ridiculous premise that they could be converted into agents of positive change instead of agents of climate change?

            Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

            by The Termite on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 03:22:51 PM PDT

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            •  I'm aware (0+ / 0-)

              but the point being we can't simply do it without enough votes in Congress and we can't get the votes in Congress unless you win over the people we're trying to help.

              Alison Grimes is going to oppose this because her constituents will oppose this and we may want to do it against their own wishes, but we cannot expect a woman who relies on these people's votes to even consider doing this. It's just not realistic and it's not how a democracy works,

              In the meantime, we should win them over by convincing them that green energy is something they CAN do and something that can revitalize Applachia.

              We won't do that, frankly, because we don't want these jobs going to Applachia, we want them in the blue states.

            •  People who say this... (0+ / 0-)

              "No change is without victims" are never the victimized. It's so easy to throw around about other people.

              •  Oh give me a break (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ivote2004

                In the post right above that I'm suggesting we keep those people on the government payroll while they do jobs that don't kill them, so please don't accuse me of being callous for suggesting a solution.

                Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

                by The Termite on Tue Jun 03, 2014 at 06:47:19 AM PDT

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              •  How about the 7 Billion victims (0+ / 0-)

                if we dont get coal shut down worldwide ASAP?

                #3: ensure network neutrality; #2: ensure electoral integrity; #1: ensure ecosystemic sustainability.

                by ivote2004 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 at 11:46:24 AM PDT

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      •  Just remember when "the market" destroys jobs (3+ / 0-)

        very few think there's anything wrong with it. Almost like it's a natural process at work.

        Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther

        by the fan man on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:41:43 AM PDT

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      •  Quote (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ivote2004, askew
        Gotta make a living, destroying the planet
        I noticed you posted this pithy comment from your computer... I hope it is solar powered.

        How do you get to work? It better be by bicycle.

        I assume your office isn't air conditioned.

        Shall I go on?

        •  Why yes, in an overpopulated world (3+ / 0-)

          with inherited existing economies and infrastructure, to merely exist as a human being is harmful to the rest of nature. It is a conundrum, for all of us.

          But the point stands. Lotta money to be made, ending the world.

          Per Jared Diamond's Collapse, when early Icelandic people from northern Europe realized that their imported traditional mainland livestock grazing practices were making the topsoil blow away, I'm sure some of them tried to keep it going. Gotta pay the bills, y'know! And yet, they changed, and so Icelandic civilization survived and is still thriving today. We can do the same.

          Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

          by Simplify on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 12:32:41 PM PDT

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      •  They can install the solar roadways. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eric Nelson, gbaked, ivote2004

        Amazing technology developed by two humble engineers in Idaho.  Currently raising money in IndieGoGo.

        http://elitedaily.com/...

      •  Like Bill Maher said... (3+ / 0-)

        to oil and coal industry workers back in 2010, "fuck your jobs".

        Yes, the oil industry creates jobs.  So does the kiddie porn industry.
        Seems oil and coal workers didn't like that kind of rhetoric, it turns out.  :-P
      •  The problem is (0+ / 0-)

        these are not very educated people. They can't just be given new green jobs, they have to be educated.

        In Applachia, the mantra is they're taking out coal jobs and giving them to some educated Californian.

        And they're not wrong.

        •  It is indeed delicate politically & economically (0+ / 0-)

          But these are the kinds of challenges we have to take on if we have any hope of keeping the planet in halfway decent condition.

          When the coal miners level the last mountaintop in West Virginia—as the sea rises, most of the ice caps melt, summer temperature soars, firestorms abound, wars sweep the globe, and a large portion of the earth's species goes extinct—what jobs will they find then?

          Green jobs can be all kinds of things. If anything, in many circumstances being more environmentally friendly means more manual labor, not less. Local organic farming, restoring wildlife habitat, invasive species eradication, industrial accident remediation, infrastructure construction... Working the land!

          Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

          by Simplify on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 04:16:11 PM PDT

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    •  Kentucky has lots of mountaintops (7+ / 0-)

      where the wind almost always blows. Put the coal miners to work building and maintaining wind turbines on those mountains instead of tearing them down.

      Republican Health Care Plan: marry a Canadian.

      by shoeless on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:53:53 AM PDT

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    •  I was mad about it too, (0+ / 0-)

      until I read your comment.

      No matter what, she is better then McConnel... and I wont judge her completely on issues like this until she is actually in office and see what she does.

      The threat to our way of life comes from corporations, and the solution is to shrink corporations while freeing government from corporate control.

      by gbaked on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 01:13:14 PM PDT

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