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View Diary: Game of Thrones: The Mountain and the Viper (99 comments)

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  •  I read the books but have not seen the series (7+ / 0-)

    I'm in the position of being a big LOTR fan....of the books, and came to the films with much apprehension.  The films were pretty damn good, even with some "adjustments".  

    My chief beef with the book series is that it isn't finished yet...I got through A Dance with Dragons, (Book 5) but am concerned that Martin is letting the HBO series influence how the book series is going.  And fuck, if Tolkien can get it done in three books, why do we need seven-plus for Martin?

    If you read this kind of stuff, you may be familiar with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series--he got to massively huge volume number 11 (I think) before passing away, and now some other authors are trying to finish the story.  It was great writing and plotting (especially early on), but I got frustrated as a reader as things continued to plod along and new story arcs were added and gave up after book 5....

    Now, one series I would love to see with the new CGI graphics is Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry...done in three....but OMG if they fuck it up like they did with Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea Trilogy, I'll just give up on the whole genre on some kind of screen.....

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 07:15:33 PM PDT

    •  Wouldn't mind seeing Tigana either (7+ / 0-)

      Just sayin....

      Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

      by Wisper on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 07:26:36 PM PDT

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    •  I share your fear that Martin is going to... (6+ / 0-)

      ..."pull a Jordan" and die before finishing the story.  I read Wheel of Time through book eight or nine, then lost my patience.  I couldn't read any more about how Aes Sedai were dressed and other such nonsense when there's a STORY to work on.

      "Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person." David Korten, When Corporations Rule the World

      by Delta Overdue on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 08:40:39 PM PDT

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      •  But what a great start...also enjoyed his Conan (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Delta Overdue, caul, lyvwyr101

        books....not Robert Howard, but certainly good stuff nonetheless..

        To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

        by dizzydean on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 08:51:39 PM PDT

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      •  Actually.... (5+ / 0-)

        ....after the really slow book 10, Robert Jordan's pace and plotting really picked up in book 11, and then he went and died. Brandon Sanderson wrapped up the series in the next three books and they were all more tightly written, so it ended on a high note.

        •  Thanks for that information (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ColoTim, caul, dizzydean, lyvwyr101

          I'd have to get some "cliffs notes" or something to refresh my memory, but the story did start off really well, and it would be good to know how it ends.  

          For sure there's a Wheel of Time wiki, I'd just have to avoid spoilers.

          "Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person." David Korten, When Corporations Rule the World

          by Delta Overdue on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 10:44:34 PM PDT

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      •  I have a greater fear. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shawn87, caul, cal2010, dizzydean, lyvwyr101

        I'm worried that he will keep writing this stuff.

        Guys, I've watched this series for awhile. I've read some of the books, and I appreciate the authors craft. But I have a love-hate relationship with the show that has nothing to do with the quality of the writing.

        I'm sick of the perversion. Not the sex, although it is overused, but the sheer brutality. I'm not even talking about the fact that they show blood. When people talk about that, they miss the point.

        There is one real essential lesson taught by Game of Thrones. Never make the mistake of being honorable or decent... you will die for that horribly.

        When Ned Stark died, it actually didn't really bother me, because it was the first incident like that. I considered it realistic. It was a good turn of the plot that taught you that you wouldn't know what would happen next.

        Unfortunately, George ruined this device for me, because I do know what will happen next. The good guy will die because he makes a mistake... usually because he behaved decently.

        I haven't read this far in the books.. but I knew Oberon would die, because I knew that this is what would happen. As Oberon appeared to win... I knew that it felt too good, and that he would be murdered with the maximum aount of horror. Sure enough, a character was introduced for no reason other than to lead the viewer into optimism, so it could then be destroyed. He does this every time, and I'm sick of it.

        As usual, I'm left looking around in wonder, noticing that there doesn't appear to be anybody left in society that is ever appalled at the sheer vicious ugliness of the stories. I will say this again, because I already know people won't get this.

        I don't really care that much about the blood, or seeing wounds. I care about the ugliness of the story, the sheer horror of it. The relentless ugliness of all the characters. I'm tired of the fact that not one single son of a bitch stands for anything in story stands for ANYTHING. They are all bastards. I like Tyrion, but at some point George won't be able to help himself, and he will kill him too.

        I literally don't care who wins the throne... because I hate the characters almost equally. It's that kind of a universe.

        As of the last episode, I'm done. I know that I'm probablly the only person here who feels this way, it's always like that.

        You know, just twenty years ago there would have been a conversation about the immorality of this story. Somewhere along the line, society changed. We have become so debased that nobody seems to notice any more.

        I suspect that has a lot to do with why its okay for drones to go bomb people in Pakistan, and why we don't even care enough to demand oversight. It's one war after another, and we watch every variety of murder and torture on television for entertainment. We don't even have to go get a DVD any more. They send it right into our homes on cable.

        Sadly, it is well written perversion.

        Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

        by martianexpatriate on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 10:44:48 PM PDT

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        •  Jon Snow... (8+ / 0-)

          Samwell Tarly
          Brienne of Tarth
          Podrick Payne
          Brandon Stark
          Davos Seaworth
          The Reeds... I could go on.

          What gets punished in the series is mistakes.

          •  Yes... so what? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shawn87, caul, lyvwyr101

            None of these people ever stand for anything. One mistake is the horrible mistake of being nice, or giving someone a chance. Sometimes, its because someone slipped on a banana peel.

            The line that separates the "good guys" from everyone else is so thin as to be nearly imperceptible. There is literally nothing happening but a kind of demented slaughter.

            I literally don't care who gets the throne.

            Ignorance more frequently begets confidence then knowledge. Charles Darwin

            by martianexpatriate on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 11:11:58 PM PDT

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        •  I believe some characters will live (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          caul, METAL TREK, lyvwyr101

          I am hesitant to say who, because it might spoil things to know who is still alive as of the end of book five, but there are a few characters who I like that I expect to make it to the end.

          I could tie this into the political bent of this site.  Permitting the filibuster amounts to being decent towards the minority point of view.  Maintaining it is the honorable thing to do, but Republicans have behaved in such a way that acting honorably is not a reasonable option.  I've long argued that progressives need to have a certain level of viciousness and ruthlessness when it comes to politics and have too often been lacking in that regard.

          War is hell and sometimes life is a constant state of war.

        •  I appreciate this comment, as most of the stuff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dclawyer06

          we see in this genre tends to be "good wins over evil after quest" or something along those lines.  LOTR is an excellent example of that, as Tolkien made a point (due to his Catholicism) of showing that evil may appear to be triumphing, but, in the end will lose.

          Martin is using real life stuff for his inspiration--I believe he was influenced by a book on the Plantagenets and Capets in late medieval France.  Throw in a heavy dose of Italian-style  politics circa the 16th and 17th centuries and there you go.  

          Machiavelli triumphs over King Arthur.

          So, it ties fantasy with realism and you get something akin to the HBO Rome series with dragons.

          To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

          by dizzydean on Tue Jun 03, 2014 at 06:49:32 AM PDT

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        •  When I first read this it made me angry--i want... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dizzydean

          When I first read this it made me angry--i wanted to take you to the moon door like Lhyssa did Sansa.

          "Look Down, martianexpat, Look Down!"

          I've calmed down a bit and am prepared respectfully disagree...

    •  Its similar with Dune... (6+ / 0-)

      After the main author died his son and another author wrote a bunch of squeal books. I have to say that I loved the original Dune books written by Frank Herbert but I couldn't get through with the sequels written by his son and the other author.

      I'd describe Dune as kind of Sci-fi/action fantasy novel.

      We only think nothing goes without saying.

      by Hamtree on Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 09:44:24 PM PDT

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