Skip to main content

View Diary: I would like to apologize to the NRA for calling them gun-nuts (217 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Both are severe personality disorders (26+ / 0-)

    and there is some crossover, and very difficult to treat

    "I decided it is better to scream. Silence is the real crime against humanity." Nadezhda Mandelstam

    by LaFeminista on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 01:00:38 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You are much safer being married to a sociopath. (16+ / 0-)

      And you are safer electing a sociopath to lead you. (If you belong to the same national tribe/culture.)

      The very best CEOs are always sociopaths.

      And almost all Presidents are sociopaths. (Or they quickly learn that it is their job to become so.)

      I don't think that the "President = Sociopath" equation is a fixed thing -- but when a nation's global murder-budget (to control resource costs) far outstrips the costs of running a modern nations like the US -- then entire swaths of your own people are selected to suffer and die. As with chained CPI and slashed food stamps and medicaid denial.

      I don't think this is a new thing. It's just that the planet is still so very primitive.


      ___________
      My Latest: Bowe Bergdahl : The Long Road Home. Evolved Human Consciousness in Action.

      by Pluto on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 01:16:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is no treatment (32+ / 0-)

      Psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder are the same thing.  People are born that way, not made - altho it's possible to teach their victims to act the same way if they're conditioned to it by the psychopath from childhood forward.  [One exception that I know of: injury to the frontal lobe of the brain can alter the brains of people who were born with a conscience.]

      There are no pills, magic wishful thinking, prayers, or therapies that will make psychopaths gain a conscience.  They are born without a conscience, they live without a conscience, and they die without a conscience.

      Counseling, in fact, makes psychopaths worse because they learn new methods of manipulating and coercing people.

      It's important to note that psychopaths are legally sane.  They do not suffer from delusions, they do not hear voices, or any of the other illusory things that accompany different mental illness diagnoses.  They are completely lucid, intellectually know right from wrong..., but choose to do whatever the hell they want to accomplish their desire for power and control over others, even when that involves criminal actions.  In the ones who have a higher IQ, if psychological manipulation does not work on other people, they'll resort to physical domination or beating people up (yes, this includes the abusive spouses).  Psychopaths who commit crimes are often caught for the simple reason they are quite proud of their accomplishments in 'putting one over' on others and they brag about what they've done.  Of the ones who commit crimes, they can't use the defense of diminished mental capacity or 'not guilty by reason of insanity.'  They know right from wrong and choose to do wrong.

      See Without Conscience by Dr. Robert D. Hare or any of the other books he's authored.  He wrote the test to determine psychopathy.  Or see books by other experts in the field who have studied these individuals.  Many are listed on Dr. Hare's home page; scroll down.

      The term 'psychopath' was coined by Dr. Hervey Cleckley (now deceased); he authored the book The Mask of Sanity.  Psychopaths are great at mimicking certain emotional behaviors, but they never actually feel emotions.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 01:48:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Check out Bowlby. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jaf49, eru, jfromga, Pluto, greengemini

        He posits that sociopathology is made not born, is a failure to bond, and the critical period is 6-18 months of age. Neglect and abuse in that age range causes the pathologies.

        •  It can, it seems (9+ / 0-)

          but some people are just born defective -- without the capacity for empathy, with no apparent cause. If I were a religious man I'd say some people are born without souls.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 09:54:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Substantiate. n/t (0+ / 0-)

            This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

            by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 02:04:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Decline. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snwflk, NonnyO

              Off topic and not really interested in getting into it.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 02:07:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can't. Even though not off-topic. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                francap

                This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

                by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 07:50:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Uh, yes I can. Watch me. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  francap

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 08:15:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Until you do you can't. And haven't. (0+ / 0-)

                    But that happens a lot online: ask for substantiation, it isn't forthcoming.

                    This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

                    by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 08:36:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, I thought you were trying to (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      debris54

                      tell me I can't decline. Instead you're just trying to goad me in a dickish manner.

                      Dude, any Google search will give you the substantiation you want. Now shoo.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 08:41:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's your job to substantiate your claims -- (0+ / 0-)

                        not mine.

                        Nothing "dickish" in expecting a person who makes an assertion to substantiate it, which is all I asked.

                        But thank you: "Google" search is what now passes -- for some -- as expertise in, as example, the practice of Internet psychodiagnostics.

                        By contrast, there is a maturity in (1) knowing one's limits, and (2) not exceeding one's limits.  

                        There is also an ethicality in that.

                        This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

                        by JJustin on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:51:10 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I believe in considering animal models as well (0+ / 0-)

            Such behavior is present in social animals. Typically, said animal is either driven out of the group or killed.

            After all, our brains are essentially modeled in a very similar fashion, so defects can also be modeled.

        •  Some cases may be created or triggered. There is (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NonnyO, bluedust

          likely a genetic predisposition towards it, (nature), which may be triggered by situations, (nurture). Others are that way from birth.

          Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
          ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

          by FarWestGirl on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 11:47:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Everyone has the same "genetic dispositions" -- (0+ / 0-)

            which is ultimately meaningless.

            This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

            by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 02:05:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not really. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FarWestGirl, NonnyO, debris54, indedave

              My family has a genetic predisposition toward obesity, high cholesterol and type 2 diabetes.
              The obesity and diabetes largely lockstepped together.

              My glucose control is quite good, unlike my cousins, who are, erm, larger in girth.

              Meanwhile, other families I know of have no predisposition toward obesity, high cholesterol and hence, type 2 diabetes, but have a predisposition toward alcoholism.
              Others have smokers, as my family does (including myself), but their families have emphysema, where mine has none.

              Genetics can and does make a difference for many diseases, including some mental illnesses.
              For these specific groupings, I'd defer to an expert in the field.

            •  lol, sorry, but not even close to true. :-) n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NonnyO

              Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
              ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

              by FarWestGirl on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 04:12:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Everyone has the same genetic proclivities -- (0+ / 0-)

                with differing emphases.

                It is also the history that the "science" goes back and forth, from one extreme to the other.  First there's a decade or so of everything being caused by nurture; then a decade or so of determinism -- of everything being caused by "nature".

                The distinction between "psychopath" and "sociopath" is so fine, so close, that it is near-impossible to actually distinguish them.  (And they are not of the lesser degree "personality disorder".)

                There is much more to the DSM than simply reading the DSM.  (Or looking up definitions on the Internet.)

                This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

                by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 07:56:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I know one instance of genetics... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bluedust, FarWestGirl

            ... where biological relatives raised apart with no contact with each other turned out the same: no conscience.  At least one was raised in a non-violent household and after leaving home became more cruel than had been in evidence when young.

            Yes, there is a genetic predisposition in certain cases (Hare touched on this in Without Conscience, but didn't delve deeply into it).

            Probably like other genetic conditions, percentage-wise.  There's a genetic roll of the dice and some who have parents or other relatives back in the family tree in a direct relationship status end up with no conscience, and others have a conscience.

            Suffice to say, even one person with no conscience can do horrible amounts of damage.  More than one and the heartbreak increases exponentially for those who have a conscience.

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 06:18:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And yet... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snwflk, bluedust, debris54

          ... plenty of sociopaths and psychopaths have existed, with no history of abuse or neglect, nor any reason for them to have failed to bond, beyond neurological anomalies.

          I think the neural imagining results, showing a lack of normal signal communication between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, have demonstrated that most of these cases are neurological not simply environmental. Nature and nurture work together, but rarely is nurture the only culprit - where nature can often work on its own at causing psychological inconsistencies.

          •  Fascinating! (0+ / 0-)

            I have something to research and read up on tonight!  :)

            Thanks!

            •  I'm sure it only just scratches the surface... (0+ / 0-)

              but an entertaining starter into the subject, is Jon Ronson's The Psychopath Test.

              I know the boys in the lab coats criticized the book as trivializing or sensationalizing the condition, but I didn't get that feel in the slightest. It's not a book that tries to teach you all about psychopathy, how it's examined and how it's studied. On the contrary, he basically is writing a huge diary about his own curiosity on those questions, and what he found out - admitting fully that's it's a minimal overview (more like a personal journey), that encourages people who want to know more, to do more reading. Maybe they were upset that a book which does so barely scratch the surface, was getting so much attention.

      •  Psychopath vs sociopath (0+ / 0-)

        Where does Dick Cheney fit in with all this? Born that way or raised by wolves?

        •  If he had been raised by wolves he would (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Silina, NonnyO, debris54, a2nite

          be leading the pack, more like raised by toxic fungi festering in the damp bunker

          "I decided it is better to scream. Silence is the real crime against humanity." Nadezhda Mandelstam

          by LaFeminista on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 11:55:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dickie was born the way he is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite

          That's just my opinion based on observation.

          Like most who exhibit psychopathic behavior, he's just too damned boring to want to know much about.  Underlying the other personality quirks that are on public display or told during "news" interviews, especially the lies that "justify" all the illegal things he has done, a psychopath has a drive for absolute control over other people, the weaker the better, and they don't give a single fuck about who they hurt in the process - and that's what Dickie's behavior evinces all the time.  Dumbya's a dumber version of Dickie who was always the puppetmaster manipulating the dumber Dumbya.  There is nothing substantive or interesting about psychopathic personalities, and thus they are extraordinarily boring people.  (IMHO, of course.)

          No one has yet picked up on Dickie's interviews when he starts in on "what Obama should have done."  Dickie gets an interview where he says Obama is weak (or whatever), and "should have" done this, that, or the other..., and Dickie delivers those lines with a slight twitch of a grin in the process - the sure sign he's pulling the wool over the eyes of the interviewer.  By or before two weeks later, Obama is doing what Dickie said he "should have done."

          How's that for "absolute control"???  The ability for psychopaths to manipulate people is rather breathtaking sometimes.

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 07:02:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Substantiate -- (0+ / 0-)
        People are born that way, not made

        This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

        by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 02:03:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do your own homework (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          debris54

          Read up on the topic - see the link to Dr. Hare's web site, for one source of books by authors who have done research on psychopaths.  Read other books referred to in Hare's bibliographies.

          I am not here to do your homework for you, so you can stop acting like a bully who is forcing the kid with the lunch money to not only give you the lunch money but do your homework so you can continue your mentally lazy & bullying behavior.

          Bullying behavior, by the way, is one of the the traits of a psychopath.

          This isn't the first time you've tried to bully me in one of these threads, and I've seen you do the same to others.

          If you're too young to know that I, as a senior citizen, have both book knowledge and experience to know what I am talking about, I suggest you do a LOT of reading to catch up to where I am in terms of both knowledge and experience.

          Whenever I have any gaps in my knowledge base gained over my long lifetime, I admit it; there are things I don't know about.  If something sounds interesting, I go get pertinent books about the subject and start sessions of immersion learning.  It's a cycle I've repeated rather often in my lifetime, long before I knew there was a term for it.

          In this particular instance, I know what I'm talking about and I don't give a flying fig whether you know it or not.  So..., do your own homework and you'll realize I do know what I'm talking about.

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 06:46:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're free to challenge me to do my own (0+ / 0-)

            homework -- without bothering to find out that I already have.

            This isn't the first time you've tried to bully me in one of these threads, and I've seen you do the same to others
            I'd ask you to substantiate, but you've already avoided the challenge that you do so.

            There is a common form of bullying on the Internet: it is the pseudo-psychodiagnosing of others -- which effort in itself substantiates that those who play that game aren't qualified to do so, because such efforts are prohibited by professional ethics.

            It's a pseudo-clever means of engaging in personal attack.  But it is nothing more than name-calling:

            Bullying behavior, by the way, is one of the the traits of a psychopath.
            And what are you doing?  Do you listen to yourself? --
            If you're too young to know that I, as a senior citizen, have both book knowledge and experience to know what I am talking about, I suggest you do a LOT of reading to catch up to where I am in terms of both knowledge and experience.
            I'm a senior.  But I don't try to bullshit others that age automagically means wisdom or competence.  It is obvious that (1) you haven't a clue who or what I am, and that (2) you don't let that lack of knowledge get in your way.

            This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

            by JJustin on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 07:48:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  your posts (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              NonnyO

              are always aggressive .. why? you are rude in your approach ... always ... why? you are a senior? you have had a nasty life of some kind? why the attitude?

              •  No, my posts are not always aggressive. (0+ / 0-)

                "Rude" in my approach?  I have little patience with stupid, and have learned that stupid isn't comprehending of or responsive to tact and nuance.

                What I don't do:

                Engage in pseudo-psychodiagnoses of people I don't know in effort to feel superior to others -- or to bully them.  Which effort is nothing more than bigot's personal attack/name-calling.  If it is "aggressive" to identify that as being that, then it is a legitimate aggression in defense of self against insult.

                Attack people I don't know based exclusively on mindless and unevidenced assumptions about:

                Their age.

                The sizes of their penises.

                What I do:

                Foremost, I go eye-to-eye and toe-to-toe with gun-nuts, who don't know anything but to aggressively assert dangerously false propaganda -- and ignore constructive disproofs of the false propaganda.

                I confront glib -- illiterate -- attacks based in such as sexism.  That means I have recently begun to confront those who engage in the constant barrage of attacks on maleness/penises as the explanation for every evil in the world since the beginning of time -- especially when it is blind to the exceedingly aggressive, nasty, and hateful bigotry behind those smug, self-satisfied, but fact-free attacks.

                I respect thought.  My comment above was response to the aggressive, bullying/name-calling bullshit "I'm a senior therefore know more than you" effort to pull rank -- which was proof of nothing but superficial, insecure concern with status.  

                And what was the result of that "I'm somebody, you ain't" effort?  That "senior" discovered that the aggressively bullying personal attack/name-calling was refuted by a senior who has expertise that isn't simply one-ups bullshitting.  

                It is not my fault that those who fake themselves into traps of their own making are intimidated by actual expertise and competence -- so they then "must" attack those who point to their foot being in the shit.

                It wasn't I who engaged in the illegitimate aggression of bullying personal attack/name-calling.

                This is the country of those three great rights: freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and the wisdom never to exercise either of them. -- Mark Twain.

                by JJustin on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:46:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Personally, I believe (0+ / 0-)

        there is a cure for sociopathy -A better(?) sociopath.

        "In some sort of crude sense, which no vulgarity, no humor, no overstatement can quite extinguish," he would say, "the physicists have known sin, and this is a knowledge which they cannot lose."

                                 --J Robert Oppenheimer

    •  Impossible (0+ / 0-)

      to cure, they are what they are, no meds, no psychotherapy can help, they have no feelings for others they just want, what they want, when they want it, for themselves.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site