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View Diary: Kingston keeps thumping Perdue in Georgia's Republican Senate runoff (58 comments)

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  •  Here's a quote from a piece that (3+ / 0-)

    Kos published in The Hill:

    Demographically, Georgia is already a blue state. Unfortunately for Democrats, those core Democratic constituencies feature anemic voting rates.
    Georgia Democrats are just as progressive as Massachusetts Democrats. Nunn is trying to win by getting traditional Republican voters to support her. Unfortunately, since these folks have taken a hard right turn since Max Cleland was elected in '96, the Republican-lite strategy is outdated.

    It's a battle between the bases of the two parties. Unfortunately, Nunn doesn't know it.

    •  Right (5+ / 0-)

      And if only the Republicans ran a true conservative they'd win every election.

      •  They haven't had much trouble doing that in (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:


        The fact is that Democrats in Georgia can't win without mobilizing their base. That can't be done while simultaneously trying to poach the GOP/T-Party base.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:30:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the fact is that Democrats (7+ / 0-)

          can't win in Georgia within winning the middle. The base is simply not large enough.

          Criticizing Nunn because she's too moderate simply isn't logical if you're interested in winning elections outside of the blue states.

          •  Winning the middle isn't the same as wooing (3+ / 0-)

            the T-party base. Trying to sound like a "kinder gentler" Erik Erickson won't get the job done.

            Georgia Democrats have to articulate a compelling message that mobilizes the base while still appealing to the middle. That won't be accomplished by lending credence to T-Party tropes.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:51:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  *rolls eyes* (7+ / 1-)

              Did this thread make it on to the main dkos page?

              50% of Georgian voters identify themselves as either very or somewhat conservative. Another 28% identify themselves as moderate. 8% identify as very liberal.

              If this is an election of bases, we lose. It's just that simple.

              •  As a native Georgian with an extended family (3+ / 0-)

                throughout the state, I don't need a poll to tell me that Georgians tend to identify as conservative.

                I also know that what that means as a practical political matter is more complicated. Treating "conservative" Georgians as an amorphous, undifferentiated mass is a large part of what turned Georgia Republican in the first place.

                If you want to have a real discussion about real issues, we can. If all you want to do is indulge in smug posturing based on simplistic stereotypes, I'll have to give it a miss.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:05:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Smug posturing? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You compared Michelle Nunn to Erick fucking Erickson....

                  •  No I did not. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wilderness voice

                    I was clearly referring to your argument. If you find the characterization unfair, we can talk about that. But don't allow your irritation to lead you into misattribution.

                    The point is that you can't appeal to the middle by capitulating to the extreme without demoralizing your own base. Given the GOP's sabotage of rural, low income health care in the state, making a point of running away from the ACA seems to be exactly that sort of simplistic calculus.  

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:23:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Where has she "capitulated to the extreme"? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      You're saying that you have to be extreme to be dissatisfied with the ACA? Do you put no merit in public opinion at all?

                      •  Mike, I was and am talking about the argument (0+ / 0-)

                        you are making. Not Michele Nunn per se. Although I did give an example of what I think is poor strategy and tactics above that you've chosen to ignore.

                        You seem to be arguing that because Georgia is a "conservative " state, Nunn has to run away from the President's achievements and lend credence to the specious attacks on them. If I've got that wrong, feel free to clarify.

                        If that's right though, I'd say it is a recipe for utter defeat. Such a course will only demoralize the base without giving the middle a compelling reason to vote for a Democrat over a Republican.

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:42:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What you said was (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Possible Liberal

                          That she was "capitulating to the extreme" and "trying to sound like a "kinder" Erick Erickson"

                          Now...if you weren't talking about Michelle Nunn, which is what this conversation was about, then I have no idea why you interjected.

                          If you were, I'd like to see an example of this. If it's the ACA, I think it's political suicide to embrace an unpopular policy position from an unpopular President in a state that he couldn't win at the absolute height of his popularity. If Obama couldn't win Georgia in '08 or '12, during a time when turnout was at its peak, what on earth makes you think a copy-cat version of him could win in an off-year election when he's considerably less popular?

                          •  You are now engaging in outright falsehood (0+ / 0-)

                            Nowhere did I say that Michele Nunn was "capitulating to the extreme" and "trying to sound like a "kinder" Erick Erickson". You have intentionally taken those snippets out of context to distort my meaning, just as you have ignored my explicit statements as to what I was referring to.

                            Evidently, you have no real confidence in your position or you wouldn't resort to this kind of barefaced fabrication.

                            The rest of your comment is simply more of the same "creative" misreading, inventing things I never said and arguments I never made. If and when you decide to address what I've actually said, there might be some point in continuing. Otherwise; no.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:15:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Haha...ok guy (0+ / 0-)

                            So were you talking about her, or were you created an unnecessary hypothetical that had nothing to do with the conversation? You pick. It's one of the two.

                          •  Wrong again. You don't get to define reality. (0+ / 0-)

                            Reality defines you.

                            Since you apparently have trouble with this, let me try to help you out.

                            What does the fact that a majority Georgians define themselves as "conservative" in a poll, the formulation of which you do not bother to provide, tell us about the practical content of their political views?

                            Assuming that you actually have an answer based on something than supposition and personal prejudice, how does that support your apparent belief that mobilizing the Democratic base isn't a significant consideration?

                            Not that I imagine you'll address these points anymore than you've bothered to address any of the other actual points I've raised.

                            I am curious though, as to your expertise in Georgia State politics, since you seem convinced that you have nothing to learn.  

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:36:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How about this (0+ / 0-)

                            Since you:

                            A) Seem to think you know more about Georgia politics

                            B) Seem to think that those 50% of Georgians who identify as conservative aren't actually conservative

                            C) Seem to think that embracing all things Obama and progressive is the strategy to win a statewide election in Georgia

                            Tell me, honestly, what's your practical strategy to get 50+% of the vote in Georgia? Specifically. Here's your chance. How do you woo those voters by embracing someone they overwhelmingly reject?

                          •  You know, it would be a lot more productive if you (0+ / 0-)

                            paid attention to what was actually said. It's certainly odd that you expect me to respond to your queries when you won't respond to any of mine.

                            First off, "conservative" has myriad different content depending on who you ask and how you frame the question. That is so obvious that it should hardly need pointing out. GOP voters, even in Georgia, are not some undifferentiated, monolithic mass and treating them as such is rank political incompetence.

                            This kind of ignorant and bigoted perspective leads to simple minded binaries, such as the belief that one must either "embrace" Obama or literally run against him. A more informed outlook would likely produce a wider and more nuanced set of possibilities.

                            Being a native Georgian who has been politically active throughout my adolescence and my entire adult life, including Democratic election campaigns, I don't think  it unreasonable that I would know more about politics in the State than someone without like experience.

                            What did you say your expertise was again? Oh that's right, you didn't say.

                            I already suggested that the GOP is vulnerable on the issue of rural health care but you evidently failed to pick up on the reference. Perhaps because you aren't cognizant of the issue?

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:04:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you're just going to keep saying a bunch (0+ / 0-)

                            of $5 words without saying anything concrete at all. K. Done here.

                          •  You are such a fraud. I gave you direct direct, (0+ / 0-)

                            concrete responses and you've got nothing.

                            Run away.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:50:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  The Democratic Party dominated ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WB Reeves

                  Georgia state and local politics for over a hundred years, up until early this century.  The right turn is relatively recent.

                  "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

                  by Neuroptimalian on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:05:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  cjo: That is, quite frankly, bull. (6+ / 0-)
      Georgia Democrats are just as progressive as Massachusetts Democrats.
      •  It is. That is like saying Elizabeth Warren could (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, Jorge Harris

        win in Georgia.  She could not.

        (Georgia native here)

        "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

        by shrike on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:03:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's a great acid test. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Yes. I strongly suspect that Elizabeth Warren would have a better chance of winning in Georgia than Michelle Nunn because Warren would be more likely to excite the Democratic base and get them to come out to vote in a mid-term election.

      •  You are so right.. (0+ / 0-)

        Georgia Democrats are more deeply determined that their Northern borthers and sisters.


        by michealallison on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:04:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  aquarius from NYC: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheUnknown285, WB Reeves

        You know more about Georgia Democrats than an 51-year old who has been active in Georgia Democratic politics his entire adult life?

        I think that I'm going to have to call BS on you.

        If you have a link with credible evidence showing that Georgia Democrats are more conservative than blue state Democrats, then I'll reconsider. Otherwise, my experience says otherwise.

        I could be wrong, but I suspect that might have more to go on than you.

        •  Well, there's this from Nate Silver (4+ / 0-)

          from 2008; it uses 2004 exit polls and Likert Scales to try and assess how liberal or conservative each state's Bush and Kerry voters were. If you scroll down to the scatterplot in mid-article, you'll see that Georgia's Kerry voters appear to be the 11th most conservative Kerry voters in the nation, comparable to those in North Carolina and Indiana. So, short answer, yes, Georgia Democrats are more conservative than blue state Democrats (provided that you agree with Silver's technique here).

          Editor, Daily Kos Elections.

          by David Jarman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:15:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You and your facts (0+ / 0-)

            He lives in Georgia, which means people who don't live in Georgia couldn't possibly use numbers to trump that.

          •  Thanks David! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WB Reeves

            As I recall, since the ACA was enacted, several polls showed that the majority opposed the law. However, the same people who opposed it also supported most of its provisions (without knowing they were in the law). Also, several support the "Affordable Care Act", but oppose "ObamaCare."

            No. I don't put much stock in how people identify themselves. I'm not asking Nunn to run ads saying, "Vote for me. I'm a liberal." I would, however, encourage her to run ads, saying, "Vote for me. I'll seek to raise the minimum wage."..."I'll work to expand Social Security benefits."..."I'll work to create Georgia jobs, by investing in teachers, police, firefighters, and fixing our broken roads and bridges."..."I'll fight for a Constitutional Amendment to take corporate money out of politics."..."I'll work make to Medicare available to all." (and so on).

            In short, I'm saying that, issue by issue, Democrats throughout the country are on the same page...including Georgia Democrats.

            •  This is what practical political content looks (0+ / 0-)

              like. These are the kinds of positions that can both excite the base and attract the middle. They speak to people's day to day concerns with an effectiveness that the rhetoric of culture war and ideological purity cannot match.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:12:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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