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View Diary: Teacher Tenure Is Dead In California (363 comments)

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  •  Why *shouldn't* a primary education teacher... (21+ / 0-)

    ...be entitled to due process before being disciplined or fired?

    Why shouldn't basic due process protections from one's employer—which is really what tenure is at the primary and secondary level—be a right we demand for each and every working person in this country, from minimum-wage on up?

    The progressive movement needs to make it a priority to end "at-will" employment and "right to freeload" laws, and ensure that each and every worker, in each and every profession, is represented by a union to collectively bargain for their interests.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 12:46:47 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  As I say earlier in this thread, how long should (11+ / 0-)

      due process take? How many chances should a non-caring, non-productive teacher get.

      I believe in due process, but if it drags on and on, then it is not due process - it's an escape valve for the teacher while neglecting the students he/she is supposed to be educating.

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 01:19:10 PM PDT

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      •  The dragging on is not usually the teacher's fault (5+ / 0-)

        Here in NYC teachers sit for months, even years, waiting for the bureaucracy to schedule a hearing. They report to work but don't teach, all while getting paid. The system really sucks.

        •  isn't that because of how expensive (9+ / 0-)

          that due process is?  I don't see how you can celebrate the thing while bemoaning its inevitable effects.

          •  "How expensive it is" (4+ / 0-)

            is generally considering the cost of the salary and benefits paid to the teacher while they wait for their arbitration hearing.

            Perhaps if there is a problem with idle teachers collecting salaries while they wait and wait for an available arbitrator to hear their case, the issue is that there isn't enough arbitrators.

            Want to fix that?  Hire more arbitrators/ALJs and/or pay them better to make more people want to take the job.

            This problem is completely beyond the control of the teachers awaiting arbitration.  The vast majority of them want to get the arbitration over so they can get on with their lives without worrying about the uncertainty of the future for months and months or even years.

            "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

            by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:30:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It is actually rather complicated (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VClib, zenbassoon

            The Wikipedia article describes the situation rather accurately.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            •  Wow, this part is eye-opening (3+ / 0-)
              In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This could take several more years to negotiate, further exacerbating the backlog of reassigned teachers.
              Um, yeah, that will slow down the process...

              Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

              by elfling on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 10:08:23 PM PDT

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    •  That's why I qualified it. (5+ / 0-)

      If the citizens of California want to make it more difficult to fire people in general, that's fine.

      I'm not seeing why primary teachers should have preferential treatment in that regard.

      (As an aside, having a right to education in the state constitution invites this kind of judicial meddling, and is generally a bad idea, as sterling as the concept sounds.)

      •  Teachers need preferential treatment. (0+ / 0-)

        Teacher tenure is important because of the possibility of corruption. A corrupt politician could fire all the teachers and replace them with his political cronies.

        I am probably one of the more pro-reform posters on DKos, but I am still in favor of tenure. It should be difficult to fire a teacher.

        Besides, the problem isn't "bad" teachers. The problem is that the teachers currently have no reason to actually teach.  We need to evaluate teachers based on what their kids actually learn -- and yes, use standardized tests to measure the learning.

        If we do this, the test scores will go up.

        •  Remarkably poor justification, there. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          musiclady
          Besides, the problem isn't "bad" teachers. The problem is that the teachers currently have no reason to actually teach.
          This is quite possibly the most ludicrous thing I've heard in years.

          Can you possibly believe that people go into teaching in order to not teach?

          Why do they become teachers, then? For the huge, inflated salaries and bonuses? The prestige? The easy hours? The simple, stress-free time spent lollygagging with the students?

          Please, do tell. I'm sure we're all positively agog with anticipation.

          I'm not even going to go into the problems inherent in high-stakes standardized testing, or the billions of money being diverted from teaching in order to fund it. That particular issue doesn't even make the needle quiver compared to the ridiculousness of the other statement.

    •  What Are... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zenbassoon

      "Right to Freeload" laws?

    •  This. All day, every day. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bahaba, zenbassoon

      One of the primary functions of unions - getting workers due process.

      "There was no such thing as a "wealthy" hunter-gatherer. It is the creation of human society that has allowed the wealthy to become wealthy. As such, they have an obligation to pay a bit more to sustain that society than the not-so-wealthy." - Me

      by Darth Stateworker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 04:26:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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