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View Diary: Rep. Alan Grayson's Attack on Civil Liberties (70 comments)

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  •  Bullshit (9+ / 0-)

    Seriously? "...eliminate the State of Israel from the planet."? I don't think so. What BDS helped to accomplish in the South African struggle was to put an end to apartheid.

    Thomas Jefferson, 1816: "I hope we shall...crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the Laws of our country."

    by PDX Dem on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 03:46:09 PM PDT

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    •  Of course, the situation in Israel is nothing like (4+ / 0-)

      the apartheid in South Africa, not even remotely. But hey,  if the Jews need to hand over control of the country to the peace loving Palestinian Authority or the humanitarians at Hamas, it's only fair, isn't it? After all, they can all go back to Poland or New Jersey or Iran or wherever they came from, and the PA can turn Palestine into a Paradise, just like in Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia and all the other artificial countries the Brits made up. Except they ruthlessly wiped out all of their enemies to avoid problems like there is in Israel today.

      "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

      by shmuelman on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 04:43:33 PM PDT

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      •  Sorry, I think this is BS (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dougiemac in WA
        Of course, the situation in Israel is nothing like the apartheid in South Africa

        A house is no home unless it contains food and fire for the mind as well as the body. - Margaret Fuller

        by penelope pnortney on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 04:54:49 PM PDT

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        •  Perhaps you could explain what's like South Africa (5+ / 0-)

          1.  Does Israel have "Jews only" beaches and restaurants? (no)

          2.  Aren't there several Arab judges and members of the Israeli parliament, even an Arab member of Israel's Supreme Court? (Yes)

          3.  Is there a mosque right on the high-priced downtown Tel Aviv waterfront?  (Yes)

          4.  Aren't there Arab men and women who are Israeli TV stars, beauty queens, stars on soccer teams and other Arab celebrities in Israel who are adored by the Jewish population? (Yes)  In fact, haven't Arabs even been voted by Jews as the winners of the Israel version of American Idol? (Yes)

          5.  Is it true that some people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel that they'll claim Israel has "apartheid"? (Yes)

          •  How the two situations are similar (3+ / 0-)

            Here I venture into the dangerous lions dens of both I/P debate and Alan Grayson worship, but - nothing ventured nothing gained.

            The two situations seem to me similar, not in specific details, but in the intent of those urging boycotts. In both cases there is the hope of putting pressure on a country that is acting in ways that are unfairly harmful to another population within their control.
            Boycotting South Africa was an attempt to bring attention, and pressure, against treatment of blacks..
            Boycotting Israel is an attempt to bring attention, and pressure, against treatment of Palestinians.

            “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

            by Catte Nappe on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 05:37:23 PM PDT

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          •  If you really need me to find you links (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dougiemac in WA

            to news coverage (non-mainstream, pretty much) that describes the discriminatory and atrocious Israeli policies that have been in effect for the last decade or more, I suppose I can do so - my opinions come from reading I've done on the subject over that same period.  You should be able to find plenty of articles with appropriate sourcing by googling Israel and apartheid.

            A more recent source, which only confirmed what I already believed to be true, was Max Blumenthal's Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel.  You'll conveniently find a spirited and sometimes virulent discussion on the subject, online, wherever reviews of his book are found.

            A house is no home unless it contains food and fire for the mind as well as the body. - Margaret Fuller

            by penelope pnortney on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 05:55:29 PM PDT

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          •  Israel has Jewish settlers only roads in the (0+ / 0-)

            occupied territories.

        •  Whether I agree with Israel's policies today, they (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mannie, charliehall2, valion

          evolved because the population got sick of being shelled from Golan, from being attacked by Syria and Egypt, by continuous terrorism and surrounding countries who refused their to recognize right to exist. You may not believe it, but this is actually the ancestral homeland of the Jews, not like the Brits and Boers who were colonialists in South Africa.
          The Brits and the US for that matter, didn't give a shit about the Jews or the Palestinians, or there wouldn't be the problems there today. The Brits actually thought they could keep one of the most educated and sophisticated populations in the world, who had nothing left to lose, came from absolute slaughter in Europe and had an indomitable political will, from forming their own country.  Just like they thought they could keep colonial rule over India. They actually kept 100,000's of Jews in interment after WW II until they could figure out a second "final solution" for them. Too bad the Palestinians had no Theodore Herzl or David Ben Gurion to lead them, no Albert Einsteins or rich Western population supporting them. No oil like the rich sheiks and kings whom the Brits courted by giving them their own fiefdoms. That's why the Palestinians don't have their own home state today.
          Just because you don't really care if Jews have a homeland, live or die, fade into history, and can run your mouth about apartheid when you have no skin in the game, I do care. I will support Israel with my life if called to do it, EVEN IF I don't agree with the temporary policies from a temporary government.

          "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

          by shmuelman on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 05:46:10 PM PDT

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          •  Ancestral homeland just one factor.... still.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shmuelman

            The entire continental US is the ancestral homeland of Native Americans, but US citizens aren't ready to give it back, and leave their houses and cities.  Just saying.  But I know there are lots of factors and one has to consider all of them.  Unsurpassed in importance is the principle that Israel must continue to exist, strong and secure, as a guaranteed safe place for Jews to live no matter what else is happening in the world.  The Holocaust justified some form of Zionism.  Justice for the Palestinians can't include opening the door for them to cause Israel, as a Jewish safe haven, to cease to exist.  

            It's a mess.  Gaza is in terrible shape and a humanitarian disaster.  The Golan has to remain with Israel for the sake of security.  IIRC, pulling out the entire West Bank would make part of Israel only a few miles wide, so that's not going to work.  What a mess.

            "Happiness is the only good. The place to be happy is here. The time to be happy is now. The way to be happy is to make others so." - Robert Ingersoll

            by dackmont on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 07:58:53 PM PDT

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      •  desmond tutu and jimmy carter disagree n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  Jimmy Carter said the opposite about Israel (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mannie, 1918

          and has made clear on many occasions that he never intended to describe conditions within Israel, where he agreed that a democracy exists with all the freedoms we enjoy in our country and Israeli Jews and Arabs are legally guaranteed the same rights as citizens.  For example, see this link.

          The territories, as you know, are not part of Israel.

          •  yeah, and the bantustans weren't south africa (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dallasdunlap, Meteor Blades, CupaJoe

            look, if you militarily control a territory, build walls on the territory, settle your population on the territory, prevent people from entering leaving the territory (even to go to third countries), control the flow of trade goods, food and electricity to said territory, periodically bomb, shoot into, and raid the territory and assassinate its elected leaders, and prevent denizens of said territory from joining the UN or related groups, you can't pretend it has nothing to do with you.

            and if you think arab israelis are equal citizens in practice, you really aren't paying attention.

      •  The problem is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades

        that the best way to keep "the peace loving Palestinian Authority or the humanitarians at Hamas, it's only fair, isn't it?" from taking over the government of Israel is to stop building in the occupied territories and to work to form a separate Palestinian state.

        The Israeli government is doing more to eliminate the state of Israel than the Arabs ever could. Because if there is going to be one state, eventually all its people will become citizens with full citizens' rights, and then Israel ill cease to exist.

        I sometimes feel that I am watching someone I love commit suicide.

        We need a world in which we ask "What's happened to you?" more and "What's wrong with you?" less. (From a comment by Kossack nerafinator)

        by ramara on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 11:13:54 PM PDT

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