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  •  ENOUGH! This is unbelievable. How many ways (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VeloDramatic, Piren, jfern

    can these warmongers and oil companies find ways to keep raking in their ill-gotten billions?  

    If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

    by livjack on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:09:53 AM PDT

    •  And I'm getting a little tired of Obama's breezy (5+ / 0-)

      tone about it.

      If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

      by livjack on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:11:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  These warmongers and oil companies (9+ / 0-)

      didn't just invade Iraq from Syria.

      These glib comments are not helpful.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:13:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not helpful to whom? Warmongers and oil companies? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CenPhx

        I can live with that, but thank you for your editorial commentary.

        If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

        by livjack on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:18:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not helpful to anybody who needs help (9+ / 0-)

          actually.

          Not helpful to the left because it makes us look glib and shallow.

          Not helpful to preventing getting mired back in this unwinnable war because it utterly fails to understand what's really going on.

          Not helpful to the Iraqi people because it attempts to shift focus from their plight to the politics of the oil industry.

          The only people it really helps are the very people you rail against -- due to the boy who cried wolf syndrome.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:21:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am not an "us," so get off your high horse. (0+ / 0-)

            If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

            by livjack on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:28:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

              If you're not part of the left, why are you here?

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:42:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Enough. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                enhydra lutris, Mr Robert, Piren

                Enough with the "why are you here", holier than thou bullshit. You are an intelligent guy, raptavio. I am quite sure you understood livjack when he/she made his or her comment about being an individual entitled to their own opinion, not a conglomerate "us" who has to agree with your opinion in order to qualify as a member of the "left".

                Just stop.

                •  Yeah, yeah. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  andrewj54

                  How dare I ask such a provocative question.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:55:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  OBTW (0+ / 0-)

                  just to steer this back a bit, do you have anything to say about the aforementioned glib remarks, pro or con?

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:02:36 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sure. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Piren

                    As to livjack's comment, I think there will be a sizeable number of people in the US who think and say the same things. People are just simply incredibly war weary and will express that in a host of different fashions.

                    As for myself, as I said some where in the comments here, I don't think the American military should be the go-to answer in every insurgency and crisis around the world. That's not an incredibly nuanced position, either, but it is pragmatic. It seems to me that we keep leaving countries in as bad, if not worse, positions than they were in before we intervened.

                    So my position, for or against, the glib comments as you asked, is really neither--I disagree with your framing. Disgust and weariness with war is not the same thing as glibness, at least not in my opinion.

                    •  I think we agree (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CenPhx

                      that disgust and war weariness are something that many of us feel -- I would assume you and me included. I've certainly made no secret about those in my circle of family and friends who have been sacrifices to the ravenous monster that is war.

                      You and I don't agree, however, on whether simply laying it at the feet of oil magnates or defense contractors is at all useful. The underlying disgust and war weariness, yes, very understandable. But pointing fingers in such a facile manner doesn't do anything helpful to alleviate that. At best, it's glib -- at worst, it's just entrenching that weariness into bitterness and a sense of helplessness.

                      I want to do more than that.  I don't want to feed a mindset that leads to defeatism, or being easily marginalized by others. I want instead to remind others of the true costs of war, both at home and abroad, both in blood and in treasure, and do something to prevent it.

                      My perspective is somewhat altered in that when my family lost Adam I stopped wanting to lay the war in Iraq at people's feet -- not Bush's, Saddam's nor anyone else's -- and just put an end to the stupid thing. Blame doesn't serve that purpose in any manner.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 02:10:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Great comment. (0+ / 0-)

                        I mean that. Great comment. I agree with all of it.

                        If you had led with this comment, explaining why a one liner about oil interests missed all the nuance and real experience you laid out here, I would have happily rec'd it. And been enlightened by it. Instead you and I got into an argument about whether it's ok to ask someone why they are here.

                        I do not know who Adam is, but I am assuming he was a family member of yours that we sent to a far off land on our behalf and he dead while he was there. I am sorry for your and your family's loss. I'm also sorry that Adam lost the chance to live the rest of his life.

                        I don't want to send more people to die unless we know it will help make the world better.

                        •  Why do you think I pivoted (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          CenPhx

                          from that little argument back to this? I know a stupid argument when I see one, and I also know a not-stupid Kossack when I see one.

                          And yes, Adam was my cousin, KIA in Iraq in December 2007. I later lost a friend to suicide brought on by PTSD from his tours in Afghanistan, so, yeah.

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 02:36:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  _Plenty_ folk (0+ / 0-)

                on this Website and in this thread who are not "part of the left."

    •  We're not all in debtors prison (0+ / 0-)

      as slaves of the corporate state.

      Hillary does not have the benefit of a glib tongue.

      by The Dead Man on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:15:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Is ISIS warmonger or oil company? (0+ / 0-)

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:43:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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