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  •  I am not an "us," so get off your high horse. (0+ / 0-)

    If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

    by livjack on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:28:14 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

      If you're not part of the left, why are you here?

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:42:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Enough. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        enhydra lutris, Mr Robert, Piren

        Enough with the "why are you here", holier than thou bullshit. You are an intelligent guy, raptavio. I am quite sure you understood livjack when he/she made his or her comment about being an individual entitled to their own opinion, not a conglomerate "us" who has to agree with your opinion in order to qualify as a member of the "left".

        Just stop.

        •  Yeah, yeah. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          andrewj54

          How dare I ask such a provocative question.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:55:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  OBTW (0+ / 0-)

          just to steer this back a bit, do you have anything to say about the aforementioned glib remarks, pro or con?

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:02:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sure. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Piren

            As to livjack's comment, I think there will be a sizeable number of people in the US who think and say the same things. People are just simply incredibly war weary and will express that in a host of different fashions.

            As for myself, as I said some where in the comments here, I don't think the American military should be the go-to answer in every insurgency and crisis around the world. That's not an incredibly nuanced position, either, but it is pragmatic. It seems to me that we keep leaving countries in as bad, if not worse, positions than they were in before we intervened.

            So my position, for or against, the glib comments as you asked, is really neither--I disagree with your framing. Disgust and weariness with war is not the same thing as glibness, at least not in my opinion.

            •  I think we agree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CenPhx

              that disgust and war weariness are something that many of us feel -- I would assume you and me included. I've certainly made no secret about those in my circle of family and friends who have been sacrifices to the ravenous monster that is war.

              You and I don't agree, however, on whether simply laying it at the feet of oil magnates or defense contractors is at all useful. The underlying disgust and war weariness, yes, very understandable. But pointing fingers in such a facile manner doesn't do anything helpful to alleviate that. At best, it's glib -- at worst, it's just entrenching that weariness into bitterness and a sense of helplessness.

              I want to do more than that.  I don't want to feed a mindset that leads to defeatism, or being easily marginalized by others. I want instead to remind others of the true costs of war, both at home and abroad, both in blood and in treasure, and do something to prevent it.

              My perspective is somewhat altered in that when my family lost Adam I stopped wanting to lay the war in Iraq at people's feet -- not Bush's, Saddam's nor anyone else's -- and just put an end to the stupid thing. Blame doesn't serve that purpose in any manner.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 02:10:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Great comment. (0+ / 0-)

                I mean that. Great comment. I agree with all of it.

                If you had led with this comment, explaining why a one liner about oil interests missed all the nuance and real experience you laid out here, I would have happily rec'd it. And been enlightened by it. Instead you and I got into an argument about whether it's ok to ask someone why they are here.

                I do not know who Adam is, but I am assuming he was a family member of yours that we sent to a far off land on our behalf and he dead while he was there. I am sorry for your and your family's loss. I'm also sorry that Adam lost the chance to live the rest of his life.

                I don't want to send more people to die unless we know it will help make the world better.

                •  Why do you think I pivoted (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CenPhx

                  from that little argument back to this? I know a stupid argument when I see one, and I also know a not-stupid Kossack when I see one.

                  And yes, Adam was my cousin, KIA in Iraq in December 2007. I later lost a friend to suicide brought on by PTSD from his tours in Afghanistan, so, yeah.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 02:36:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  _Plenty_ folk (0+ / 0-)

        on this Website and in this thread who are not "part of the left."

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