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View Diary: Now All Men: Sexism, Objectification and Violence (198 comments)

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  •  If they tell me to go fuck myself? (6+ / 0-)

    Then I cut any ties I had with them just to prove the point that the behavior is unacceptable.

    •  That's cute (0+ / 0-)

      You actually think your scorn matters.

      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

      by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:36:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obviously you think yours does. (13+ / 0-)

        " *  That's cute (0+ / 0-)."  

        “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

        by weezilgirl on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:49:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am not trying to shame anyone (0+ / 0-)

          I am trying to figure out how this is supposed to help women. From what I can gather it's more about cleaning up the language used by the people he interacts with and not about actually solving the problems women face.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:53:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For someone trying to figure it out (15+ / 0-)

            you sure are heaping a lot of derision and doing precious little listening.

            How about this:

            There are no one-size-fits-all solutions. #NotAllMen are going to listen no matter what. But being out there and putting these stories and these experiences out there to be heard will reach the ears of those who are willing to listen.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:01:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Echo chambers (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Theretherethere

              You're creating echo chambers, and not actually solving the problems.

              I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

              by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:05:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And you would know this, how? (8+ / 0-)

                 Big hat, no cattle. Big horse, no saddle.

                “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

                by weezilgirl on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:08:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You are acting as though you are terminally stupid (5+ / 0-)

                when I know it's not at all true.

                Are you serious when you imply that you are unaware of the act of active listening, and how hearing the story of another person's pain can awaken heretofore unknown feelings of empathy even in a person unable to physically experience such events themselves?

                If so, I must then assume you've never been to see a film which topped out your "suspension of disbelief" at holy fuck! and in which you found yourself there, in the film so deeply that the end credits left you stunned for just a few moments.

                Because those are both the same thing.

                Active listening has the added benefit that when used to communicate with those who have experienced traumatic events, both the speaker and the listener can achieve healing of the psyche through the catharsis of safely relieving events from a distance. Where one can stop and examine single moments at length. Where one can discover the ability to forgive themselves for what was done to them, but for which they've carried a terrible burden of guilt nonetheless.

                These are some of the things which make us human.

                I am terribly sorry for you if you act out here in diary after diary, wounding many others with your inelegant and sometimes brutal words, because you lack this critical component. It must be tragically sad to be you.


                "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization"

                by Angie in WA State on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 08:07:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am well aware (0+ / 0-)

                  But we weren't talking about active listening, we were discussing the effectiveness of men scolding men for talking about women in a sexist way when only in the company of men.

                  I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                  by jbou on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 10:23:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  And it's up to the messenger... (0+ / 0-)

              To deliver a message people can understand. If I write something and it doesn't get my desired reaction I look at what I did wrong and see if I can make my message more palpable for the masses.

              I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

              by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:09:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That refrain (6+ / 0-)

                very quickly becomes a distraction and a detraction, because there is no way to deliver a message that is going to be heard by all people. Someone will always take issue with it.

                People who are emotionally invested in talking about Something Else are going to take any imperfection in the message and talk about that rather than the message itself.

                What you can do, if you want to promote this radical notion that Women Are People, is instead of trying to be hypercritical of a message that doesn't meet your exacting standards of clarity and inoffensiveness, is to try to echo the message in a manner more in adherence to them.

                If, indeed, that's a notion you want to promote.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 07:13:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  'The Language' is at the core of the problem (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            USHomeopath

            Here:  Read this --

            http://www.albany.edu/...

            •  Language is not the problem (0+ / 0-)

              Language is shallow and open to interpretation.  Actions are what helps define people words are meaningless until you give them meaning.

              I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

              by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 10:41:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Speech IS action. Silence is consent/agreement. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                2thanks

                In one of your comments here you wrote about being with guys when they were doing the hang-out-and-comment-on-girls thing -- a male-bonding sport described in the diary, and entirely commonplace.

                You, and every man who finds himself in that situation, has (at least) three choices:

                1. Join in, actively participating

                2. Remain silent -- not actively participating, but agreeing/consenting/approving

                3. Voicing disapproval or objection ('Hey dude, not cool')

                Two of those options support and help perpetuate this form of objectification and use of human beings as objects.  One choice interrupts that process.

                Choice 3 might just cause a guy or two to stop and think; or it might allow a guy or two, who is uncomfortable with the sport but afraid to object, to speak up as well.

                But one thing that the guy who choose option 3 can expect is that he will be turned on and mocked by the other players, probably mocked by being called a particular (coveted and despised) body part.  He will probably also be accused of 'spoilng the game for everybody else' and be told he's 'not one of us', no longer a member of the club.

                Ooooh.  Scary.

                It's much easier to derail a diary by saying 'speaking up won't work' that by saying, 'The thought of speaking up is really scary, because the guys will turn on me and mock me and I won't be 'one of them' any more.'

                •  It's not scary (0+ / 0-)

                  I do it on occasion but I don't see it being effective, in fact some guys now say shit on purpose to get a rise out of me.

                  I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                  by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 12:04:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Is this the poker club again? Making you a pet (0+ / 0-)

                    faux-feminist, trained to speak on demand for their entertainment so they can attack you and feminism at the same time?

                    •  Nice of you to discount my experience (0+ / 0-)

                      Because it doesn't fit your view.

                      You're a hypocrite.

                      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                      by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 12:41:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You described the interactions as: (0+ / 0-)
                        in fact some guys now say shit on purpose to get a rise out of me.
                        I read this to mean that:  

                        Some of the guys purposely say woman-hating things in order to make you respond by saying pro-woman things or 'scolding' them. [And you've already made your point that they attack when you 'scold'.]

                        If my reading is incorrect, please clarify.

                        My understanding about bringing up (whatever) to someone to 'get a rise' out of them means that the players know that (subject) always gets a predictable response (the rise) from (subject), and that the whole point of 'getting a rise' out of someone is to mock them and their subject.

                        Maybe I mis-placed my 'faux'; I meant to say that the group is using you as their faux-feminist, not saying that you yourself are a faux-feminist.  That when the groups does this, they are using you as a kind of Chatty Kathy doll, which gives forth a few phrases when her string is pulled.

                        I may very well be mistaken in my reading of this 'saying shit to get a rise' thing.  It could represent some kind of deep, meaningful means of male-bonding that I don't understand -- if that's the  case, please explain to me how that works, because I'm obviously not taking it into account.

                        Because you see, when I first read that 'saying shit to get a rise' thing, I saw that as horribly abusive, and I couldn't understand how anyone could allow themselves to be abused so horribly -- to remain part of a group that repeatedly sets you (and your subject) up for mockery.

                        But what you've explained by this point -- that it is not just your Monday night poker group, but poker groups five nights a week, that treat you in this way, with your acceptance and participation in this treatment of you -- makes it easier for me to understand why you might see the whole world through the filter of what is really a small number of men.  And I can begin to understand why you, writing from a five-night-each-week immersion in mockery of your position (and of you for holding that position), with one part of the group dynamic being to make you participate in your own mockery/abuse -- well, that sentence got out of hand.  But it makes it easier for me to understand why you might take the position here that 'It won't work!  You can't win! You'll only get abused, and will change nothing'.I can begin to see, now, how from your standpoint you could feel that you are trying to protect us, trying to save us from what you experience five nights a week.

                        •  Enough (0+ / 0-)

                          Nice of you to womansplain the male experience interacting with other males to a male. You don’t want to accept my take on things so you are being dismissive and condescending.

                          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                          by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 01:59:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, I'm asking you to explain so I can (0+ / 0-)

                            understand better.

                            As you can see, I was saying things like 'This is how I read this . . . this is how I see it'  while asking you to explain and clarify my understanding.

                            So while it is 'womanspeak' insofar as I begin with my own admittedly limited understanding of the situation, and ask you to correct my understanding by providing me with more information.  While this is indeed 'womanspeak' (and reasonable discourse), I don't think it qualifies as 'womansplaining' (which is a pretty dismissive and condescending word for you to introduce, imo).

                            I'm asking you to explain and correct my understanding.  I am asking you to explain "the male experience interacting with other males to a male" as it relates to the situation we're discussing.

                            How can asking for explanation be 'dismissive'?

                            Whether or not you provide the explanation I'm requesting is your choice.  But I do appreciate your having stayed in this discussion long enough to allow me to learn the basis of your defeatism in this thread.

                •  this is how it was done with racist jokes (4+ / 0-)

                  In my lifetime (I'm 64), the acceptability of telling them has dramatically changed. Because people started, one by one, to object. Even if they got made fun of. Even if it didn't "do anything". Until it did.

                  Yes, there are still racists. Yes, there are circles where those jokes are still told. But today there is a wide-spread understanding that those jokes aren't funny and that the joke teller is branding himself/herself as an ass/dick/unsavory person who we'd all just rather ignore.

                  And it's made the world a better place for us all.

                  working for a world that works for everyone ...

                  by USHomeopath on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 01:59:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Racism is very much alive and well (0+ / 0-)

                    ... and it runs a lot deeper than racist jokes.  Shaming those unsophisticated enough to express it openly does little or nothing to mitigate the damage done by institutional racism which still informs nearly every aspect of our daily lives.

                    Lip service and high-fives are self-serving exercises, not solutions.

                    •  I don't disagree with your main point (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      churchylafemme, aitchdee

                      about racism running much deeper and informing nearly every aspect of our lives.

                      But if only the unsophisticated can express it openly, it does change the perception of what is normal, what is OK for lots of people. It creates a milieu that encourages us to present our better selves to others. When people do this repeatedly over time, they change. The more you act your better self, them more you become that.

                      I agree it's not a whole solution. But it's not self-serving and it's more than lip service.

                      At the very least, it lets your children grow up seeing you behave better than you otherwise might, creating more tolerance over time.

                      working for a world that works for everyone ...

                      by USHomeopath on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 05:05:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Funny how quickly the talk grows hostile, eh? (10+ / 0-)

          And doesn't address any point made in the diary?

          •  The diary doesn't offer any real world solutions (0+ / 0-)

            And the diarist didn’t stick around for the discussion.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:26:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  To learn something (9+ / 0-)

              it's not necessary to offer "real world solutions."  If you don't know what the problem is, you don't know what needs to be solved.  If you don't understand the problem, no solution will be worthwhile.

              There is no "women's problem."  The "problem" is a problem with "men."  That's what the diarist is trying to help people understand.

              He doesn't stick around?  Meh, maybe he should've.  Hasn't stopped discussion, has it?

              •  I want solutions (0+ / 0-)

                Talking about things endlessly is for philosophy class and that's why I didn't like philosophy. I want to solve the problem not sit around talking about it. If you have cancer you get it treated you don't talk about how the cancer makes you feel.

                It's proper dailykos etiquette to stick around for the discussion portion of your diary.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:44:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's your solution, in two words, easy peazy: (5+ / 0-)

                  Educate yourself.

                  Or, since you like philosophy so much, let me quote Socrates:

                  "The unexamined life is not worth living."  So, as a person of action -- start examining!

                  •  It's not about me (0+ / 0-)

                    I know what the problem is. I am taking about reaching out to the people who are the problem. I am looking for solutions not some crap about looking within or other such self help nonsense language.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:01:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I see (6+ / 0-)

                      So you want solutions, but nothing to do with reading, nothing to do with reflection, but something that has to do with "reaching out to" others, who are the problem.

                      And you're sure you're NOT the problem.

                      Maybe you should begin by thinking about that.  Secondly, you should talk to your male friends, those you think are part of the problem, as passionately as you are doing in this diary.  What should you talk about?  Well, do you have any ideas where to begin?

                    •  Here's another solution (9+ / 0-)

                      Most urban areas have organizations where men can meet with other men to talk about male violence against women.

                      If you're confident that you've got things pretty figured out, that you're part of the solution and not the problem, find out about one of these organizations and join one.  Talk to other men about how not to be violent toward women.

                      Or begin donating goods to a local women's shelter -- toothpaste, soap, clothing.  That's a positive action that will concretely help people.  You can set a model for your friends.

                      •  OK (0+ / 0-)

                        I will check and see about the meetings.

                        Seriously if you're going to talk to me don't sound so condescending.

                        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                        by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:17:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I didn't mean to sound that way. (7+ / 0-)

                          Seriously, for my part, if you want something concrete to do, do some research and find out about some organizations of the sort I mentioned.  Donating stuff to shelters is always a good thing to do.  And, even if this sounds lame, call guys out if they say or do dumb shit.

                          I was in a bar once watching a baseball game.  Two guys were seated near me.  One guy says to the (female) bartender, "you on the rag, or what?"  Now, two against one -- I'm not going to confront them -- the numbers weren't in my favor.  But I did say to the bartender, loud enough to be overheard, and I said it with a bit of a snort, "People still say that?  For real?"  She rolled her eyes, she knew the score.  I'm not sure what I "accomplished."  What I hoped I accomplished is that the guy who said it felt a little stupid.

                          Baby steps are enough for me.  Again, anything irritating in my tone is unintended.

                          •  I've been volunteering at a... (0+ / 0-)

                            soup kitchen for the last twenty years and if I had money I'd give even more. I don't worry about calling people out if they need it but I'm not going to be the language police. I find that silly.

                            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                            by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:44:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  real world solutions. maybe i mentioned this befor (0+ / 0-)

              see my comment below for one suggestion....

              This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

              by certainot on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 08:18:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  He made you uncomfortable enough (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1

              that you felt the need to invalidate the whole diary.

              Which means that he accomplished exactly what he set out to do.

              Poet e.e. cummings was asked in an interview to define poetry.  cummings replied with an old vaudevile shtick:

              Q:  Would you hit a woman with a baby?
              A:  No, I'd hit her with a brick.

              You just got hit by a brick.

              Do you clench up? Do you feel a wall between your mind and her words? Instead of shutting down, use your defense mechanisms as a map to what scares you about their pain and confront it.
              Are you man enough to do that?

              There are men who are man enough to do that, although some of them may not know that yet, and are still working hard to protect their power-base.  Some are changing now, re-evaluating, recognizing, re-forming themselves.

              This IS the real-world solution.

      •  'You actually think your scorn matters' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jbou

        Best not devalue scorn, jbou, when its your stock-in-trade.

        •  Well (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think my scorn can change people's behaviors. I have low expectations for my scorn.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 10:35:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yet you persist in marketing your scorn here. (0+ / 0-)

            Odd that.

            You could put the same time and energy you've put into this thread, and -- just as an experiment -- put that into behaving differently when you're with a group of women-dissecting men.  I'll even give you your opening lines:

            'Hey, guys, this bitch on the Internet double-dog dared me to do this:  The argument was about whether or not objecting to what we're doing now would change anything.  So, if when Bob said the thing about that juicy 7's ass a minute ago, if I had said something like, 'Hey, Dude, not cool', how would you guys have responded?'

            Then sit back and listen.  The cool thing is, by approaching it this way, you can still joke your way back out of it -- 'Whew, sure glad I didn't ask that, then!'.  That and a few pussy-jokes and you're back in the club.

            This experiment will allow you to better assess your choice to remain silent, and to urge others to do the same.

            Double-dog dare you.

            •  Just stop (0+ / 0-)

              I have already done the speaking up part on race and sex. The idiots are still racist and sexist. It doesn't work. If you doubt me come join me any Monday night at the club in Northampton Massachusetts for poker. You'll can hear them tell me enough already when I scold them for being sexist or racist.

              I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

              by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 12:09:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So your weekly poker club rules your world (0+ / 0-)

                and has proved to you that No Change Can Happen, So Everybody Should Just Shut Up.

                You know, this thread would have been so much better if you would have told that story up front.

                You could have just written, 'My Monday night poker club shuts me up when I scold them about sexism, so speaking up won't work there, and I'm not about to give up my poker club.'

                That at least would have been an accurate representation of your reality.

                •  That's one example (0+ / 0-)

                  I play poker five nights a week and most nights it's all guys and it's the same old story but go ahead tell me what works in those situations I'm sure you have more insight then me and know what's best.

                  I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                  by jbou on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 12:39:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  And another thing (0+ / 0-)

      If this is about changing the paradigm then scolding people until they stop talking to you or you stop talking to them makes life easier for you but doesn't change the paradigm. It's like trying to fix  the environment by telling people not to drive in your neighborhood,  It keeps your neighborhood smog free but the rest of society is left to choke.

      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

      by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:46:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But if enough people join in (11+ / 0-)

        And they face social exclusion for their views, it doesn't really make life easier for them does it? And what the fuck are you suggesting? I stand by and say absolutely nothing when they do that crap? I'm saying relentlessly hound them every time it comes up, not out of nowhere. It shouldn't be tolerated.

        •  That is only going to piss people off (0+ / 0-)

          You think that your scorn is going to be cheered on by others and I beg to differ. I watched women attack each other over how a fifteen year old is responsible for her rape. I have my doubts your scorn is going to make a dent.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:56:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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