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View Diary: Glenn Greenwald called Iraq war protestors hardcore communists and truly odious. (340 comments)

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  •  I think greenwald's screed speaks for itself (0+ / 0-)

    and having read it I think the diary while certainly flawed has validity. Greenwald benefits from a double standard here especially among the 'left of the left' (or whatever term you want to use). Pointing out that not too long ago Greenwald was more than happy to bash those same people shows the lack of anything approaching honor/integrity/morals/whatever you want to call it

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:15:56 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  What same people? (3+ / 0-)

      Communists in Argentina have nothing to do with what GG talks about now.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:49:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps not (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban, AoT

        but does he still think that anti-Capitalist perspectives are illegitimate?

        That was, after all, the crux of his attack on the Argentinian protestors.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 06:55:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ^ this exactly AoT (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          regardless of whom he was talking about the fact is he came down very much as a right wing libertarian nut with that post (and possibly others I'm actually kind of interested in reading his other blog posts).

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 07:01:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You really should read some of his other posts (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban, BradyB

            I'm not what you would call a fan of GG but it was interesting to see the positions he took in 2005. He even has one talking about the GOP's Hillary derangement syndrome. A few going after Bush for the first round of NSA disclosures. It really does reinforce that a lot of what we know now from Snowden was at least being discussed back then.

            As someone on the left I don't see this writing of his as being right wing libertarian, it's pretty much moderate, maybe center right. I see similar stuff here on a regular basis. I certainly don't like it and I disagree with it, but I don't see it as an indicator of some sort of radical right agenda.

            The main thing is that the diary made this about anti-war protesters when really it's about communists and socialist. If the title had been something like "GG calls communists 'odious'" then I think it would be dead on. Instead it is about "Anti-war protesters."

            The other problem is the poll, which heavily implies that GG has this opinion of all anti-war protesters.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 06:18:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well we simply will not agree (0+ / 0-)

              and as I said the diary is not perfect but factually it's correct and as such hiding it is the exact same bullshit that caused all the insanity a couple weeks ago.

              At the very least you can agree that Greenwald was 'right of center' though I still say his positions are exactly that blend of left and right crazy that is the hallmark of right wing libertarians. I won't argue the point with you though because I don't expect you to change your mind.

              I will point out that this is about Greenwald's words which are never quite clear whether he is calling all anti war protesters or not. Then again it's not even clear Greenwald understands the situation he's commenting on. But you know let's just say that this was only about communists and socialists, what makes you think his attitude has changed? Doesn't it bother you even a little that this is yet again a situation that points to Greenwald saying that which he thinks is in vogue?

              In the end I don't expect this to change people's minds. Those predisposed to defend Greenwald will continue to do so because there have been far more damaging insights into the man and yet people still seem to consider him some sort of prophet for the left.

              Lastly I will point out that the blog post in question for the diary appears to be have been scrubbed from his site  or at least the attempt was made. As I have yet to find it on his blog as it is today. Maybe I'm wrong on this as it is an old site and the navigation is weird but if it has been scrubbed from his site it makes me wonder what else has been attempted to be removed. Wouldn't be the first time Greenwald has tried to rewrite his history and probably will not be the last.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 09:53:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you mean hiding the diary (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban

                the I agree with you. I don't think it should be hidden. I just think it's wrong, and as a result misleading.

                At the very least you can agree that Greenwald was 'right of center' though I still say his positions are exactly that blend of left and right crazy that is the hallmark of right wing libertarians.I definitely agree he's center right when this blog post was written. I haven't read any of his recent stuff so I couldn't comment on that. I also know a number of folks who fit the description you give of right wing libertarians and he doesn't really seem to fall into that category. I don't really know enough to say either way though.

                In the end I don't expect this to change people's minds. Those predisposed to defend Greenwald will continue to do so because there have been far more damaging insights into the man and yet people still seem to consider him some sort of prophet for the left.
                I don't really have much of an opinion about him either way and this didn't really change my mind. I see him as mostly center-right but a more libertarian center right as opposed to center right around social issues. Ultimately I don't really understand why it matters. I don't understand why he seems to be such a big deal that so many people feel the need to defend and attack him.

                He doesn't strike me as particularly important other than as a conduit through which Snowden got the information out. He basically an oped columnist and I can't think of any other oped columnist that so many people seem to care so much about. Of course, I've been drawn into this argument a number of times, this diary included. Even if he is a right-wing libertarian it wouldn't really matter much as far as I can tell. He attacked Bush on these issues and now he's attacking Obama.

                Lastly I will point out that the blog post in question for the diary appears to be have been scrubbed from his site  or at least the attempt was made. As I have yet to find it on his blog as it is today. Maybe I'm wrong on this as it is an old site and the navigation is weird but if it has been scrubbed from his site it makes me wonder what else has been attempted to be removed. Wouldn't be the first time Greenwald has tried to rewrite his history and probably will not be the last.
                I had a hard time finding any old stuff on his site, not sure if that's on purpose or not. I could find a few entries from that same month, but blogspot or whatever it was has horrible archive functionality.

                if you couldn't find it. This is his old blog that he hasn't used since 2007.

                He almost seems more reasonable back then. He has a post defending Howard Dean when Dean said that we were losing the Iraq war and should pull out.

                My problem with the diary, and especially the title, was that it made this abut the war protesters in general and not about the specific groups protesting in Argentina during Bush's trip there.

                But if you get right wing libertarian out of what he writes we'll just have to disagree.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 10:36:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I assume he does. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WB Reeves

          He's not a communist or a socialist that I know of. But that's not how the diary presents this at all. And being against communists puts him pretty firmly in the mainstream politically.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 06:19:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To me the key point is that he equated (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            what he calls "economic freedom" with "individual liberty". If by "economic freedom" he meant what is usually intended by this RW meme, then his attack encompassed more than just the formal definition of Communists.

            While hostility to Communists may be mainstream, the equivalence between so-called "economic freedom" and "individual liberty" isn't.

            Individual liberty is upheld by the principle of unalienable rights, independent of property or economic interest.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 11:15:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He didn't equate the two (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WB Reeves

              He included both. The language he uses does echo a lot of right wingers. And as I've said elsewhere, he's probably about center-right in his politics.

              I'm still confused as to why Greenwald matters so much. He isn't the one who is releasing most of the information, he just does commentaries on it. So why does anyone care what his politics are. Because it seems like a lot of people are attacking him or defending him for no reason but to attack or defend him. And unlike Snowden, where the person in question is central to what's happening, Greenwald is tangential at best.

              The diarist says:

              For some bizarre reason Glenn Greenwald is considered a progressive or at the very least a member of the left.He sounds like your standard right wing libertarian.
              I don't know where he's been considered a progressive. I've certainly never heard anyone call him a progressive.

              So, sure, he said he doesn't like authoritarian communists who want to take away individual rights and economic freedom, which Castro demonstrably did. Most people in the US agree with that.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 11:37:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well we can agree to disagree on the question of (0+ / 0-)

                equivalency.

                I do agree that GG as an individual is only of incidental significance to the issues he raises and the info he imparts in his journalism.

                Which is why I find it troubling that so many ostensible leftists, progressives, etc., regularly and in apparent knee jerk fashion, leap to the defense of GG the individual.

                Contrast this to the general reaction when it was revealed that Chris Hedges was involved in a scandal over plagiarism.

                I think this diary is a case in point. Instead of simply granting that GG has expressed some dodgy political opinions and asking so what, we've been treated to yet another sprawling pie fight, replete with the usual insinuations regarding shillery, conspiracy, factional chicanery, character assassination, ad nausea.

                IMO, if the purpose of the diary was, in fact, to lure folks into caricaturing themselves as GG "fans", a lot of people fell right in with it.  

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:11:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  From what I can tell people leap to his defense (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brecht

                  because a good number of people have decided to attack Greenwald personally as a response to information that Snowden released.

                  And Greenwald was defending Howard Dean on his blog at abut this same time. This entry in no way paints with any sort of broad brush. No way at all. He's very specific about what anti-war protesters he's talking about. There isn't shred of evidence in the post that he wants to apply what he said to all anti-war protesters. The title of the thing is: "Meet the oh-so-noble peace protestors in Argentina"

                  What he's taking issue with is the claim that these protesters are simply peace protesters, and he's correct. They aren't simply peace protesters. He even goes after people smearing congress critters who switched positions on the war. So to claim that he is somehow attacking all anti-war protesters makes absolutely no sense.

                  IMO, if the purpose of the diary was, in fact, to lure folks into caricaturing themselves as GG "fans", a lot of people fell right in with it.  
                  This diary is a caricature of what Greenwald actually said. It generalize his thoughts on a specific Argentinian protest in a way that he himself doesn't.

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:31:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  AoT, if some people are attempting to make GG (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    the individual the issue in order to detract from his journalistic work, how does it make sense to respond by arguing about GG the individual?

                    Regarding the diary, yes it has some problems. That's why I finally decided to only tip it rather than reccing it as well. It just didn't deserve to be hidden. The fact that a number of people did opt to hide it bears out my point about self caricature.

                    We just don't agree about the significance of what GG wrote way back when. Although I think we would agree that it has little to do with a lot of the extraneous issues that have been aired in these threads.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:44:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I didn't think it deserved to be hidden either (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      WB Reeves
                      AoT, if some people are attempting to make GG (0+ / 0-)
                      the individual the issue in order to detract from his journalistic work, how does it make sense to respond by arguing about GG the individual?
                      What am I suppose to do, someone is wrong on the internet. Like I'm gonna just leave it at that?

                      But I agree.

                      More than that, I haven't seen anything from Greenwald that is especially great. Maybe I'll make a sock puppet account and start spreading rumors about how he actually is a government plant meant to make people who are opposed to the NSA look bad.

                      No War but Class War

                      by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:02:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ha, Ha! (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT, Brecht

                        That's funny! Although, sad to say, given the atmosphere around here on some days, I wouldn't be surprised if it was cited later, ripped from context, as a serious proposal.

                        If that happens, feel free to call on me as a witness to your good character. ;)

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:19:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Can't speak for others; I HRed the tip jar because (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          WB Reeves

                          the big picture and several telling details made me pretty confident that the diarist is not here to promote meaningful, substantial conversation, but rather to stir up shit on Daily Kos.

                          If I'm right, we'll see that more clearly over their next several diaries. I've yet to see any convincing evidence in the other direction.

                          "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                          by Brecht on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 02:32:43 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We all have to answer to ourselves. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brecht

                            For myself, I never Hr based on suspicions or suppositions about motive. I try to base such action solely on content or lack thereof.

                            Otherwise I'd be chronically running an Hr deficit.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 02:59:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  There's also this line in the diary (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WB Reeves, Brecht, BradyB
              His ridiculous dismissiveness of the Iraq protestors' true intentions sounds like it came right out of the mouth of Dick Cheney.
              He wasn't being dismissive of Iraq Protesters, He writes other entries not to long after where he sticks up for Dean when the right attacks Dean for saying the US was losing the war in Iraq. He attacked them because they were communists. It's a world of difference.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 11:38:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  As I said before, I think it goes beyond simply (0+ / 0-)

                attacking Communists. Just as the red scares of the 20's and 50's went beyond attacks on Communists.

                I think it is pretty clear that GG was attempting to de-legitimize war opponents who operated outside the consensus of US "national interest." Communism and Castroism were simply expedient clubs for that purpose.

                We'll just have to disagree about this.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:22:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If that were the case then wh would he also (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WB Reeves, BradyB

                  defend opponents of the war at home? A mere 20 days later. It makes no sense.

                  I think it is pretty clear that GG was attempting to de-legitimize war opponents who operated outside the consensus of US "national interest."
                  Which puts him firmly in the mainstream of American politics. Shit, there's folks who are considered leftish that do that. To call that "hyperbolic teabagger rhetoric" is absurd. Was anyone under the impression that GG was pushing for communist revolution?

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:37:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Where did he defend opponents of the war (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    who had anything other than his approved "consensus" view of "national interest"?

                    Isn't it a little odd for you and I to find ourselves on opposite sides here? Don't you find it strange to be defending comments that exclude all but mainstream opposition to the Iraq war?

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:49:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  My point is only that this diary (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      WB Reeves, Brecht

                      and others seek to portray him as some evil right wing libertarian teabagger when that just isn't in what he wrote. What he wrote is firmly in the mainstream political frame and even centrists democrats generally agree with it. I don't agree with it, but that's not the point. The point is that he's not making a sweeping generalization about people who opposed the war as the diary suggests. That's all.

                      Don't you find it strange to be defending comments that exclude all but mainstream opposition to the Iraq war?
                      I'm not defending them, I'm noting that they don't lump all opposition to the war together. That's it. He's no radical in either direction. I would be happier if more journalists took the left seriously, but if we dismissed journalists because they thought of communists like he does then we'd be left with no journalists to listen to.

                      I'm just baffled as to where the "Hyperbolic teabagger rhetoric" charge comes from. This is standard American political rhetoric. I don't agree with most of it, but it's not hyperbolic compared to anything else on the oped page, and less so in 2005.

                      No War but Class War

                      by AoT on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 12:58:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You have a point about "hyperbolic, tea party (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        rhetoric". Again, such things contributed to my decision not to rec the diary.

                        I'm not suggesting that we dismiss GG or any journalist on the basis of their politics. I am suggesting that it's bad policy to obscure or ignore real political differences.

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 20, 2014 at 01:08:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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