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View Diary: Bernie Sanders to make Hillary the next Cantor? (109 comments)

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  •  Climate Targets (0+ / 0-)

    Richard Tol happens to be often quoted, but obviously he is an academic troll. Still, it isn't him making the argument in the articles I mentioned.

    Here are better articles:
    There's a big gap between Obama's climate ambitions and his actual policies:
    http://www.vox.com/...

    America’s Dirty Secret: Shipping coal to China could wipe out the benefits of Obama’s climate-change policy
    http://www.macleans.ca/...

    So, the question is: What target of degree C are we aiming for? The 2°C is practically a fantasy now. The Neoliberals and their "all-of-the-above" strategy will likely push us right to the 4°C threshold.

    Its a simple math of how many gt of carbon we can still burn, and doesnt yet incorporate complex feedbacks. Need I remind also of Scientists' tendency to anti-alarmism has already seen conservative projections fail. Jut a few years ago we were all still discussing 2°C by 2100 and the Arctic wasn't in threat of imminent summer collapse.

    Judging by Obama's actions and many other business leaders, we all see positive momentum for mitigation. Sadly, most still seem to live in some technological fantasy where man will ultimately "overcome nature". What % of Earth's population are we willing to sacrifice?

    •  michael mann and john abraham (0+ / 0-)

      and joe romm understand the science, and neither under nor over estimate. klein doesm't understand the science. you're good at tossing around code words like "neoliberal" or "anti-alarmism." you're not so good at understanding how the words do and don't apply to contexts.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:20:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am speaking entirely about the Science (0+ / 0-)

        I follow the Science very closerly, and even regularly read published research. Joe Romm and Michael Mann both agree with me. Here are Joe Romm's own words:

        Two Steps Remain Before Obama Can Claim A Genuine Climate Legacy
        http://thinkprogress.org/...

        "U.S. natural gas consumption must peak sometime between 2020 and 2030 to preserve a livable climate. So it makes little or no sense to spend any substantial amount of money on new natural gas production, delivery, and power systems"

        "even very low leakage of methane from the natural gas system wipes out its advantages over coal power for decades. The recent scientific literature — based on actual measurements of methane — reveals that methane leakage is actually quite high."

        "By The Time Natural Gas Has A Net Climate Benefit You’ll Likely Be Dead And The Climate Ruined"

        "if Obama can’t leverage his policies and commitments to get a serious international deal, it will be prima facie evidence that he didn’t do enough. And future generations living with the multiple catastrophic impacts of a ruined climate will judge him, and all of us, as failures. "

        How Does The New EPA Rule Stack Up Against Obama’s Other Climate Actions?
        http://thinkprogress.org/...

        "That rule isn’t expected to make a huge difference in terms of U.S. carbon emissions"

        Again, the scientific community is happy that anything is being done, but nobody is imagining that efforts so far can themselves cause or lead to limiting warming to 2°C or maybe even 3°C.

        Michael Mann: Earth Will Cross the Climate Danger Threshold by 2036
        http://www.scientificamerican.com/...

        •  whoosh (0+ / 0-)

          michael mann has praised obama's bold steps on climate. he and romm directly criticized klein, which undermines the exact premise of your post. you might not understand it, but this isn't complicated.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:20:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Go ask them then (0+ / 0-)

            They have both praised Obama's bold political steps, which is badly needed to at least break the ice. Neither are in an illusion that this is a significant step to remain within a 2°C or even 3°C target.

            I think you are also ignoring my links. Please read Joe Romm's article directly above. Quote:

            "if Obama can’t leverage his policies and commitments to get a serious international deal, it will be prima facie evidence that he didn’t do enough. And future generations living with the multiple catastrophic impacts of a ruined climate will judge him, and all of us, as failures."

            •  i don't need to ask (0+ / 0-)

              i already know. i also know what they think of klein's concern trolling.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 12:37:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  do u just read my comment subject? (0+ / 0-)

                Joe Romm's article directly above. Quote:

                "if Obama can’t leverage his policies and commitments to get a serious international deal, it will be prima facie evidence that he didn’t do enough. And future generations living with the multiple catastrophic impacts of a ruined climate will judge him, and all of us, as failures."

                •  and he's trying (0+ / 0-)

                  meanwhile, you know, we have romm's actual post dismantling klein's, point by point. i know this is hard.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:46:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Dismantle his *defeatism* (0+ / 0-)

                    Which I certainly agree with Romm & Mann on. But they don't disagree with Ezra on the numbers or the challenge ahead of us though.

                    Honestly, Ezra is mainstream media guy who apparently just recently woke up & realized how fucked we are and overreacted with depressing pessimism. Hard to blame him if you look at the facts of the Science, and the political roadblocks - there is certainly a lot to be pessimistic about

                    But there is still a lot we can do, and we must do the very best we can. We can still have a very liveable planet. But if we fail to push for radical mitigation, it will be catastrophic, with deaths in the billions. Wall St and the "ecopragmatists" are pushing for no strong climate targets, rather just mitigate gradually as is most cost-effective in their eyes, and hope for the best.

                    Besides, I am not sure why you keep ignoring the fact that I gave u exactly what u originally asked for: proof on the Science (from Joe Romm & ThinkProgress) that Obama and the establishment Dems are not planning to do nearly enough to avoid a horrific future.

                    I wish it wasn't so, but it is. This Neoliberal agenda is identical around the world too, across various countries. Not enough.

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