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  •  God if that isn't the truth. (41+ / 0-)

    I cannot believe the poor Civics education Americans have. People just cannot comprehend how government works.

    "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in all kinds of directions.” --Lord Vetinari

    by voracious on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 05:13:56 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Um, not to be (23+ / 0-)

      nit-picky or anything, but "Americans", by and large, have precious little control over the public-school curricula, particularly since the advent of Standardized Testing. All I'm saying is "let's remember that people know what they're taught". They don't know how government works because our school districts are for some reason too busy paying administrators exorbitant salaries to worry about teaching the right subjects to generations of American schoolchildren.

      Not to mention that "government" hasn't "worked" for a long time anyway, and since 9/11, has pretty much entered The Twilight Zone for damn near anyone much over the age of 40.

      "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

      by lunachickie on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 06:36:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wont nit pick at all, (8+ / 0-)

        I would like to say that I was educated prior to all the standardized stuff.  Remember the Department of Education was not created until 1979.  You want to know how I learned how a bill was passed and how our government was run.  Saturday morning cartoons.  No Joke.

        There was a class in High School called US History and Now there is also a US Government class.  Don't blame the education system or standardization for the stupidity that comes of the ignorance of our great and exceptional citizenry.

        "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" James Madison 4th US President

        by padeius on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 06:42:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So was I! (11+ / 0-)
          I would like to say that I was educated prior to all the standardized stuff.
          And? How does that jibe with the rest of your comment? I don't know what The Department of Education has to do with my comment. I specifically used the word "administrators".  
          Don't blame the education system or standardization  
          I have blamed that and I will continue to blame that. That's not blaming "The DOE", it's putting blame where it belongs--the education system in this country, like most of its other institutions, has been hijacked by corporate swine and curricula nationwide is the poorer for it. And so are generations of our children. Human beings do not magically absorb historical fact by osmosis.  Schoolhouse Rock is no substitute.

          "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

          by lunachickie on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 06:53:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok So (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            murrayewv, Crashing Vor, Chinton, elwior

            all that standardized stuff has been put in place by the Dept of Education which is where that comes into play.  Administrators have very little control over curriculum.  Texas controls curriculum based on the text books they approve and buy.  

            If Texas won't buy it, the text book does not get published.  That should scare the hell out of everybody, Texas has more power over curriculum than California or New York.  This information comes from a good friend of mine who works as a High School Teacher in California and deals with the standards and curriculum daily.

            I disagree with your statement about "corporate swine"  not because I think the Corporations involved are not swine, but because they only have power granted to them by our wonderful elected officials from the school boards all the way up to POTUS.  

            We can blame the corpratocracy for an awful lot of stuff, hand in glove with our elected officials.  This of course ties in real nicely with the diary.

            The POTUS can only implement policy duly enacted by Congress.

            "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" James Madison 4th US President

            by padeius on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 07:12:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Incorrect (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Crashing Vor, cybrestrike, elwior

              It's not "just" the Department of Education:

              ...all that standardized stuff has been put in place by the Dept of Education which is where that comes into play....Administrators have very little control over curriculum.  
              You want to not beat on that meme so insistently, methinks.  

              To wit:

              Sources of authority that influence the duties and responsibilities of the local school board include state and federal constitutions, legislative enactments, rules and regulations promulgated by the U.S. Department of Education and the state board of education, and legal interpretations by judges, attorneys general, and administrative agencies. A school board functions locally, within the confines of the state's delegation of power and the geographical boundaries of the district, but is a legal agency of the state and thus derives its power from the state's constitution, laws, and judicial decisions.

              By state legislative enactment, school boards are delegated power and authority to develop policies, rules, and regulations to control the operation of the schools, including system organization, school site location, school finance, equipment purchase, staffing, attendance, curriculum, extracurricular activities, and other functions essential to the day-to-day operation of schools within the district's boundaries. Boards may also be authorized by the state legislature to levy taxes, invest resources, initiate eminent domain proceedings, acquire land, and assume bonded indebtedness.

               

              "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

              by lunachickie on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 07:22:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Absolutely, local school boards have (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Heart of the Rockies, blackhand

                the ability, authority and responsibility to influence and define, the local school system.

                Only one problem, if they want federal dollars handed out by the Dept of Education, follow these rules.  If the local school board wants State dollars handed out by St Dept of Educations or which ever organization which handles education in each state, follow these rules.  So there are 2 massive government agencies telling the local school board what to do.  The school board does not have to follow those rules, but if they were to choose not to follow the rules set down by these agencies, they would have very little money to operate.

                "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" James Madison 4th US President

                by padeius on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 07:33:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cybrestrike

                  the DOE demands that local administrators make six-figure salaries? I had no idea...

                  "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                  by lunachickie on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 07:44:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ok I see where I went wrong, (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    nickrud, Tempus Figits

                    I was addressing the standardization and poor educational performance as opposed to the supposed waste of money paying an administrator a competitive salary, six figures or not.  The local school board may or may not have control over the pay scale for admins, In some states the pay scale is set by the state in others it is set by the local board, in some places it is negotiated with each individual admin based on experience and qualifications.

                    Paying teachers and admins a decent salary to deal with the crap that parents, students and teachers heap on them is much less disagreeable to me than paying a policeman what they make.  I do not know what your school system's budget is but where I live the admins make six figures and still deserve more than they get.  What's more is the money spent on admins is tiny in comparison to the amount spent on the damn electricity bill or the sports program.  

                    So where I went wrong was, for some reason you think admins make too much money and if we just cut the salaries, some how with the wave of the magic cut the wage wand, all the problems would be solved.  So ok you keep believing that admin salaries are the problem with our educational system and they are the reason people don't learn anything.  Good luck with that.

                    "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" James Madison 4th US President

                    by padeius on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 08:14:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  a very specific tip here (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      padeius, Tempus Figits, Jon Sitzman

                      not for the snarky ambiance but for the acknowledgement that skills deserve recompense. Bad admins? Get rid of them. Good ones? Pay them enough that they'll not move somewhere else.

                    •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cybrestrike

                      In all that word salad that you think somehow magically conveyed that the DOE is the entire problem.

                      Awfully tea-baggerish, that.

                      So ok you keep believing that admin salaries are the problem with our educational system and they are the reason people don't learn anything.  
                      As is your obvious lack of reading skill. I love it when people try to put words in others' mouths when the words are already on the damn page. Yeah,
                      Good luck with that.
                      You need luck more than I do, skippy...

                      "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                      by lunachickie on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:24:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OMG, LOL. (0+ / 0-)

                        I will start with the last first, I have no kids, will have no kids and quite frankly don't really care that the kids of this generation basically are all incapable of critical thinking.  I do not need luck, and can not skip due to a disability, thanks for rubbing that in.

                        My reading skills are quite good as opposed to this generations.  But I have been reading since I was 3 and actually enjoy books, real books not the ones you download.  That said, reading comprehension goes with critical thinking, the folks that make the rules are usually the group of folks that should take responsibility for the conditions those rules create.  I know, more word salad to confuse the issue.

                        The teabagger comment is the one I find the most fun. If being informed about how a large government agency, via No Child Left Behind, has basically destroyed the ability of schools to actually teach kids how to learn and then sharing some of that information is teabaggerish, then ya I guess I am a teabagger, the best part about that is my boyfriend will be thrilled.

                        Nice chat, lets do it again sometime.

                        "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" James Madison 4th US President

                        by padeius on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:08:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So, it's all about you, then? (0+ / 0-)
                          I have no kids, will have no kids and quite frankly don't really care that the kids of this generation basically are all incapable of critical thinking
                          That's too bad, because we're all in this together.
                          If being informed about how a large government agency, via No Child Left Behind, has basically destroyed the ability of schools to actually teach kids how to learn
                          Try applying some of those critical thinking and reading skills you're so proud of to the concept of "what the posts actually say". Your stylish ability to continue to lay all of the blame on "a large government agency" is what's teabaggerish.
                          I know, more word salad to confuse the issue.
                          Apparently.

                          "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                          by lunachickie on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 05:23:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Parents still have a little control, don't they? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens

            Or do they just get a free ride on the ignorance of their children? If you are going to have a kid, try to make that kid  learn as much as they can, and don't depend on someone else. It ain't happening. Seems to me a lot of parents think their job ends when they take the kid home from the hospital and give them food and clothes. That's where the problem is. Good old American irresponsibility. What they get in school now is a computerized test regimen on factoids. Rich people can buy their kids good jobs. Others better start teaching their kids that learning is a good thing or we are doomed. No time like the present.

            •  As soon as they don't have to work (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              chuckvw

              3 jobs to keep their kids (and the rest of their families) alive, and have the knowledge themselves to do the job that professionals struggle mightily to do, sure, I'd agree with that.

              "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

              by bryduck on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:35:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There is birth control. Common Sense. Reality. (0+ / 0-)

                And it helps if a parent makes learning a priority, no matter how much money. Homeless-of course that is different. Stuff happens beyond one's control. We grew up poor; always had books and music around. My mother didn't work. She was a bit agoraphobic, for one thing and we didn't have inflation. It was easier then, sure. You write as if all parents have 3 jobs to keep their families alive. If they do, priorities are different, yes. But we both know that is just a convenient use of hyperbole on your part in trying to poke holes in my theory of making parents responsible for their children.

        •  We had civics in middle school (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie

          I also read a LOT, and though I did watch "Schoolhouse Rock" and loved "I'm Just A Bill," it didn't tell me anything I hadn't already learned in school or by reading my family's encyclopedia.

          This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

          by Ellid on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:36:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  My son just took civics in high school. (15+ / 0-)

        The curriculum clearly explained how government works. Unfortunately that education is not reinforced by our pathetic media.

        "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in all kinds of directions.” --Lord Vetinari

        by voracious on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 07:21:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously, Luna! I've got 3 publicly educated (4+ / 0-)

        kids born in '95, '97 and '00.  The curriculum got shifted around so many times while they were in school with govt being taught at 5th, no 3rd, no 6th, no 7th, no 9th grades, etc, that I ended up with one kid getting it taught NEVER; another who got it in 3rd, 6th, 7th, 9th and 11th grades; and the last one is entering 8th and hasn't been taught it at all yet. But, hey, at the end of this school year, his class did get to beta test the newest standardized test that's about to be foisted on the public schools!

        To summarize, those born in '97 and educated in the SLC school district understand the 3 branches and how a bill becomes a law, and got it drilled hard into their heads.  Those born in other years, and perhaps educated in other districts know nothing unless their parents taught it to them, or they've watched some Khan Academy or Schoolhouse Rock videos on Youtube.

        "On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps...of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again."

        by middleagedhousewife on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:35:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  American parents need to force their kids to read (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cjfb, elwior

      books. Whatever it takes. We will never get out of the darkness the way it stands. If you make learning a larger part of a kid's life, it will take with most of them. Drop the religious BS and grab books and slap them in front of the kids and tell them to read the damned things or no dinner, TV or computer time. Put the blame on parents. They are the ones raising the Michele Bachmanns and Sarah Palins and Mitt Romneys and all the less notorious millions of others. Don't count on schools. Bush took care of those, and Obama is continuing it.  

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