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View Diary: About those 'personal, caring, consensual conversations' abortion protesters supposedly want ... (340 comments)

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  •  the Westboro school of expressive rhetoric (20+ / 0-)

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "If we appear to seek the unattainable, then let it be known that we do so to avoid the unimaginable." (@eState4Column5)

    by annieli on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:50:57 AM PDT

    •  Damn, that wasn't true but it was funny as hell (21+ / 0-)

      From the folks over at CrooksAndLiars

      It wasn't David Phelps, and the entire event was staged as a promo to get viewers for Battlecam.com's alleged plan to stream live footage of a man being crucified in Beverly Hills on Easter Sunday.

      GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

      by ontheleftcoast on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:56:08 AM PDT

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    •  Very good summary of the opinion here: (7+ / 0-)

      "let's talk about that" uid 92953

      by VClib on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 02:22:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I fail to grasp (23+ / 0-)

        why any women should be subject to counselling that she has not sought for herself just because she happens to be on a sidewalk and approaching a clinic. The justification for this particular exercise of free speech is idiotic to say the least.

        The justices have accorded random people the right to harass others with their opinion.

        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy... the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. - John Kenneth Galbraith

        by lcbo on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:51:40 PM PDT

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        •  icbo - we all have the right to harass others with (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          serendipityisabitch, rduran, Rita5018

          our opinions on any topic we chose, if we do it individually or in a small group on public property.  That's the balance the SCOTUS tries to manage. If we have a larger group we can be subject to certain time, place, and manner restrictions.

          "let's talk about that" uid 92953

          by VClib on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:55:58 PM PDT

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        •  Good point. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rduran, Janet 707, Zornorph

          I hope you will agree that this also applies to people who do not wish to listen to union picketers just because they happen to be on a sidewalk and approaching a business that has a labor dispute.

          I fail to grasp (8+ / 0-)
          why any women should be subject to counselling that she has not sought for herself just because she happens to be on a sidewalk and approaching a clinic.
          •  We call those "employees." (5+ / 0-)

            They have a vested interest in the labor negotiations and/or they represent those employees at the bargaining table.

            They're hardly strangers offering opinions about highly personal situations about which they know nothing.

            Analogy fail.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 10:31:17 PM PDT

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            •  So does this apply equally to OWS protesters (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              catfood, rduran

              outside a bank?

            •  Trying to carve out exceptions (0+ / 0-)

              isn't going to work.  The First Amendment draws no distinction between acquaintances and strangers.

              •  Carving out exceptions when physical (5+ / 0-)

                Violence is involved (please read all the stories by escorts and women who have needed abortions in these comments) seems perfectly legit to me.

                I know lots of people who have shopped at grocery stores during strikes for example (I wouldn't) and not one has ever reported that they were spit on, pushed, punched, or otherwise accosted.

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 09:00:31 AM PDT

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                •  Or told they were going to hell. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  acornweb, penelope pnortney

                  "If you defeat a thousand opponents, you still have a thousand opponents. If you change a thousand minds, you have a thousand allies"

                  by Donkey Hotey on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 11:46:43 AM PDT

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                •  Doesn't fit my understanding of union pickets (0+ / 0-)
                  I know lots of people who have shopped at grocery stores during strikes for example (I wouldn't) and not one has ever reported that they were spit on, pushed, punched, or otherwise accosted.
                  I don't know about grocery stores, but here is a pro-union source bragging about strike activities: http://labornotes.org/...
                  The protesters arrived as the scabs were boarding a bus for the Port of Vancouver. As the bus left the parking lot, community members formed a picket blocking its path.
                  ....
                  Protesters then caravanned to the port, pursuing the bus full of scabs. While the bus waited in line to gain entrance to the port, protesters intercepted it and set up a picket outside United Grain’s only entrance, thus blocking the bus and preventing individual scab vehicles from entering the port.

                  Protesters occupied the road and blocked the gate, refusing to let the vehicles move. Longshore workers and the community supporters surrounded the bus, chanting, “Scab cars turn around, no union busting in this town,” and “When longshore workers are under attack, what do we do? Stand up, fight back!”

                  Longshore workers from the night shift, exiting the port, witnessed their union brothers and sisters and community members joining in an act of solidarity. We heard many cheers of support and some joined on foot; others made use of their vehicles to help surround the bus with traffic.

            •  It seems you are advocating speaker or content (0+ / 0-)

              specific rules about who may or may not speak.

              Such rules are presumptively unconstitutional.

              •  As I just said to rduran above, (7+ / 0-)

                The difference is physical violence.

                When you work at a hotel or grocery store and  innocent customers come, you're not going to abuse them like these abortion clinic protestors abuse patients. Without  customers you have no job.

                Read through these comments again, the stories of violence are ghastly. It's not just yelling at patients. It's violence.

                The first amendment doesn't protect that.

                And hey, by they way, I can chose a different hotel or grocery store to shop at.

                There's usually only one clinic that provides abortion clinics in a city -- if not the whole state. I'm not sure the exclusive nature of these medical services should not grant it a carve out. Would society let this happen at St Jude Children's Hospital or Walter Reed? Of course not. They're facilities that provide care for vulnerable patients that virtually no other facility provides.

                Same with abortion clinics these days.  

                It's not just your standard "business."

                And who do we have to blame? The very people who are camped out in front.

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 09:13:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Correct, the 1st Amendment does not protect (0+ / 0-)

                  violence.

                  Read through these comments again, the stories of violence are ghastly. It's not just yelling at patients. It's violence.

                  The first amendment doesn't protect that.

                  But the law in question did not criminalize violence.  It criminalized expressive activities like standing near the clinic door holding a sign, praying, or handing out leaflets.

                  You can't criminalize non-violent protest on the grounds that some people with the same beliefs are violent.  

                  There's usually only one clinic that provides abortion clinics in a city -- if not the whole state. I'm not sure the exclusive nature of these medical services should not grant it a carve out. Would society let this happen at St Jude Children's Hospital or Walter Reed? Of course not.
                  Uh... yes.  See Fred Phelps.

                  The exclusive nature of a location does not somehow allow you to trample on free speech rights near it.  There is only one Goldman Sachs HQ in New York, but you can't prevent people from protesting in front of it on the grounds that GS workers have to go past them to get to their jobs.  

            •  I love how people appoint themselves God of lan... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lilredhead

              I love how people appoint themselves God of language and pass the "fail" judgement on others as if it were final and binding. Agree or not, I understood the analogy. What a puerile thing, pretending one is the last word in their own argument.

              If I may venture down that silly path, if only in jest:

              Judgement fail.

          •  I hope you aren't telling me that union pickets (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jillf

            are in the same emotionally fragile stage of a woman about to have an abortion.  She is going through a tumultuous experience that she has every right to do in private.  It is, after all legal as is union picketing.

            If a picketer decides to push their opinions of a customers reproductive system on said customer, then of course, they should be stopped immediately.  Yours is a false argument.

            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

            by cowdab on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 02:40:03 PM PDT

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          •  Counseling without a license? (0+ / 0-)

            Could these sidewalk counselors be charged for practicing medicine?  Counseling is an actual medical service used to help people in a proper, secure and safe environment.  A public sidewalk hits none of those qualifications and I'm willing to bet none of those anti-choice people are licensed therapists, social workers or any sort of professionally recognized counselors.   Will women be able to sue them for giving unsound advice?  For misleading or outright lying to them about 'facts' during their counselling sessions?

            I'm just waiting to see what happens first.  Another clinic shooting, or some poor woman freaking out and harming a protester.  (let us hope the woman isn't suffering from PTSD due to rape).

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