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View Diary: Democrats need women to vote, Hobby Lobby will deliver (379 comments)

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  •  No, but when Democrats are making mistakes, (5+ / 0-)

    or poor policy decisions, or doing Republicans' work for them, there are valid criticisms to be made.... I think.

    Looking through the comments, it seems a message has grown that any criticism = "Is a Republican" (diary on that up today) or = "not a Democrat."

    In fact, isn't the more loyal Democrat the one who speaks out about errors and tries to push for a better path, rather than the one who simply goes along with anything coming down the pike?

    Put another way, the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. Were the more loyal Americans those who opposed the invasion and criticized it thereafter, or were they those who simple endorsed everything the country did?

    I believe it is not the case that anyone believes the two parties are identical on every issue, but a good number do believe Democrats are too aligned with neoliberal economics, to the detriment of the working people and poor of the nation.

    Pointing out the similarities with Republicans' neoliberal economic beliefs is not the same as saying there "are no differences."

    Yet, look at the comments, here and in the = Republican diary.  Criticism is necessary as a part of democracy. Not sure if name calling is. Better to connect and educate, building the base, I think.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 02:13:48 PM PDT

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    •  You're talking to the old Markos. He's gone. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gulfgal98, Dallasdoc

      I have some of Markos' old posts bookmarked and it's like they were written by a different person.  Today's Markos is largely post-ideological and views issues through the prism of electoral politics.   Even in this diary, in which he ostensibly shows a little passion over policy, he makes it clear that his excitement is rooted in the fact that he thinks he's found an issue that will be a great weapon for Democrats to win elections.  That's what animates today's Markos.   You can see it with civil liberties, and many other things.  He doesn't give a shit about civil liberties because there's no electoral angle for Democrats to exploit.   He can watch the Bill Of Rights get chucked into a blender and it interests him not one iota.

      •  Well, let's say ot is all about the electoral (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gulfgal98, TracieLynn, Dallasdoc

        angle and nothing else.

        If you always want to have the greatest chance of attracting people to your slate of candidates, is it better to: 1) stay on conversational trends with them, looking for shared interests, goals or values, or 2) do the name-calling thing?

        That's the point of my "confusion" - some critiques may be aggravating or annoying, but isn't it a good thing to keep the conversation going? Slamming the door on people.... Especially those who hate Republicans (shared value there?) ....  I dunno.

        A values-based view of things often results in revelations of Republican hypocrisy which can be very useful in campaigns.

        I remain interested in the concept of working and poor people reforming the dysfunctional economic system we have today. The gates of big money have yet to be crashed.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 02:59:45 PM PDT

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        •  I understand, but you have to frame EVERYTHING (0+ / 0-)

          around electoral politics if you want to reach today's Markos.  Otherwise you might as well be talking a foreign language to him.

          •  Have you been following the site for a good (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, Creosote

            period of time? Sounds like your perceptions are very in-depth, given your recently joining or at least signing up.

            I really don't think Markos pays any afternoon to me at all, but I do wonder if he sees what happens to the tone of the site after particular statements.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 03:31:57 PM PDT

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            •  Long before I joined I already could name 30-40 (0+ / 0-)

              commenters here who I considered to be the real liberals here.   I'm a long time reader.   I have a collection of DKos bookmarks that doesn't even fit on my monitor screen.   I have even more from Firedoglake and I've never been a member there.

      •  Sadly recommending this (6+ / 0-)

        I have tried to communicate with the PTB about focusing more on issues and solutions and was ignored.  The problem is that if the Democrats focused upon populist issues, the elections would take care of themselves.  Unfortunately, all politics is more focused on fund raising and appealing the fundraisers.  It is sad because the people have been losing badly and will continue to lose.  

        Yeah, the Dems are better on the social issues that do not cost the big money folks anything, but that does not address the huge problems facing us of economic inequality, constant war, and climate change.  No one is doing anything about those big issues.

        "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "...isn't the problem here that the government takes on, arbitrarily and without justification, an adversarial attitude towards its citizenry?" ~ SouthernLiberalinMD

        by gulfgal98 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 03:20:19 PM PDT

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        •  My view is that politics can't just be about the (6+ / 0-)

          horse race or the brand. It needs to be about values that people hold or beliefs they have. And then, as you say, the horse race takes care of itself.

          We barely get 50% of Americans to the polls these days. "Winners" of elections really only get about 26% or so of the nation's support.

          Just for the sake of argument, let's say that those 50% not voting stay home because they don't see the point anymore. Wouldn't it be motivational to give them something to believe in and speak to their authentic experience?

          Continually trying to sell them "The Brand" is probably going to be less effective than standing behind their economic needs and future. The Republicans serve that purpose for the 1%.

          Can Democrats pull themselves away from the easy money of the rich and stand for economic justice?  I see a huge need and advantage for Democrats there.

          But we keep getting neoliberal bankers and Republicans appointed by a Democratic president. And that leads us back to those 50% or so who normally don't vote at all.

          They need to have something to believe in. Certain segments came out and newly voted in 2008. Will that happen again? We'll just have to see.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 03:49:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jerome Armstrong, who co-wrote "Crashing The (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gulfgal98, Dallasdoc, YucatanMan

            Gates" with Markos, echoes some of what you're saying.  He says the progressive movement became "non-ideological to a fault."    Glenn Greenwald has made similar statements.  I agree with them.  So many people on the Left have systematically purged themselves of most of their ideological motives.   Today's Left is more about promoting whatever policies win elections and ignoring issues that have no profitable electoral angle.   Markos is emblematic of that.
            Most liberals don't even talk the way they used to back in 2008.   We've become a bunch of cold-eyed pragmatists who only get excited when we have a issue that we can use as a political weapon against our opponents.   Ideological commitment for its own sake is seen as a character flaw now.  Plenty of posters here will tell you that, in so many words.


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