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View Diary: Veterans Bill STILL In Negotiations? (19 comments)

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  •  Make the filthy rich pay the price for their wars. (5+ / 0-)
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    jimstaro, d3clark, flycaster, unfangus, llbear

    Republicans want to screw the poors and when they block it because of that they'll go on the teevee and say "Democrats are keeping the Veterans from the help they need"

    "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 04:26:30 AM PDT

    •  Never gonna happen. (6+ / 0-)

      Nor will the money come from the “defense” budget.  The negotiations are about which needed social program to cut to pay for this needed social program.  Flip the House and supersize the Senate Democratic caucus.  Otherwise, nothing changes.

      •  While This Imperative Has been Known for Years (4+ / 0-)
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        jimstaro, macamma, unfangus, llbear

        now, and it should have been known for a couple of decades, it's not in the mainstream conversation.

        I think one easy, major improvement on our side would be for all the different populist and nonconservative movements and organizations to put House and Senate capture as their principal message or alongside their top priority messaging.

        Because any outcome other than immediate damage to all these organization's values requires Democratic control of national, state and local government including the courts.

        There really isn't any niche interest of the people or of any kind of rational civilization that is not under vigorous attack by global ownership and their Republican party.

        As long as the state of crisis in government is heard from only a few niche general political activists it's going to be in the general electorate's mind about as often as brie. Labor, immigration, reproductive freedom, climate change, health rights, every group has to put government change on the front messaging burner.

        The Democratic Party is not going to do this, it's opposed to fighting vigorously for power for a lot of reasons we all bring out in other discussions. We can't let that be our problem. In the short term we have to force them into power and in the longer term we have to force better membership into their party.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 05:28:00 AM PDT

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        •  Politics is personal. (1+ / 0-)
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          unfangus

          Military personnel and their families are traditionally conservative and tend to vote Republican.  It’s the same for rural whites.  The largest non-voting groups are minorities and youth.  Convince these people, one on one, that their interest is to support progressives (or at least Democrats) in every election at every level and we’re there.  It’s a tough, long haul, but nothing else will do it.  As far as organizing the various progressive factions, I still hold with Will Rodgers.

          •  No Their Not (2+ / 0-)
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            Village Vet, llbear

            Keep buying that spin, like teapublicans are the strong on national defense and more. Military personal, the grunts, are pretty much a-political, the officers corp on the other hand are mostly conservatives, wars bring faster promotion, as they seek the positions most fruitful after they disembark from the military!!

            "If military action is worth our troops' blood, it should be worth our treasure, too; not just in the abstract, but in the form of a specific ante by every American." -Andrew Rosenthal 10 Feb. 2013

            by jimstaro on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 06:32:31 AM PDT

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            •  My comment about the military (0+ / 0-)

              wasn't based on "spin".  Here’s part of what Jack Dempseyat Huffington Post said as analysis of Gallup and Reuters polls back in August of 2012.

              Among the youngest service members and veterans in the survey, those ages 18 to 25, there is nearly an even split in party identification with 36 percent identifying themselves as Democrats and 41 percent as Republicans. The advantage is still obviously to the Republican Party, but the gap is significantly closer among the young than it is with older veterans, who average a 30 percent to 48 percent split between Democrats and Republicans, respectively. However, when IPSOS/Reuters asked respondents who they would vote for if the election were held today, the gap in vote preference for the youngest generation of service members and veterans closes even further, with 39 percent and 40 percent choosing Obama and Romney, respectively. Romney's greatest levels of support were found among older veterans, in keeping with Gallup's analysis.
              If you have more current data, I’d be happy to be wrong.

              You must have read something into my comment that I didn't intend,  because I don't think that conservatives have any good policies on any issue, including national security.  But, I live in a very conservative, rural part of Washington State and I know I'm not going to change people's minds by telling them that they are full of shit.  I expect that many who are now complaining about the problems at the VA will happily vote this fall for our Republican incumbent who has demanded that new costs in one program be matched by cuts in another.  And so it goes.

          •  No we're not. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jimstaro, llbear

            Neither veterans nor rural whites.

            However, if the Democratic Party chooses not to engage us, or writes us off as a "47%" they can never win (see how well that strategy worked for Mitt Romney), then the Democratic Party does not deserve our votes.

            Military personnel and retirees are people, and like the people in all voting demographics, have all sorts of opinions. Buying into the conservative argument that all military and their families are a "lost cause" means that we will in fact be so.

            My wife (who I married in 2007) flipped her voting pattern from life-long Republican to frequent Democratic voter because she became aware of actual disabled veterans issues. Prior to meeting me she had not met a veteran and assumed we were all conservatives.

            While she still identifies as conservative, she has taken on many more liberal qualities (including voting) — but if you think we rural white military families are not worth the effort, please proceed.

            "A Conservative is a fellow who is standing athwart history yelling 'Stop!'"—William F. Buckley, Jr.—Founder of the conservative policy magazine "National Review"

            by Village Vet on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 08:16:02 AM PDT

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            •  Yes rural whites tend to be conservative. (0+ / 0-)

              I have spent almost all of my live in eastern Washington or eastern Oregon.  Romney won the county I live in 59 to 40, McCain won 55 to 43 and in 2004, Bush won 63 to 36. Take a look at this map of county-by-county results for the last three presidential elections.  In 2012, Obama didn’t win a single county in eastern Washington and eastern and southern Oregon, two “Blue” states.  Pickings were light in the Central Valley of California and through the Rockies and Great Plains with notable exceptions for Colorado and New Mexico.  The Ohio Valley and Appalachia shows same story.  You aren’t conservative, I’m not conservative, but the majority of rural whites are conservative.
              As for the military, you’re undoubtedly more knowledgeable about the current state than I am but the most current data I could find was what I cited in response to jimstaro, above.  I’m happy if I’m wrong on this.
              I never said anything about “writing off” anybody.  I, personally have more faith in one-on-one, face-to-face, civil discussions as a means of changing someone’s mind than any number of mailings or TV ads.  Sometimes, people who know me, and trust me (even if I am known as a “pinko”) will believe what I say over what FOX has told them.  Not often enough, but sometimes.  I would love to see a wave of progressives sweep races across the country, from school boards and town councils and count commissioners through state legislatures to the federal level.
              And, in most races, if you withhold your vote from the Democrat, you’ve given a freebie to the Republican.  Here in Washington, with a Top 2 primary system, a lot of voting is for the lesser of two evils.  But, whatever rows your boat.

          •  Tell that to all of the recruiters (0+ / 0-)

            Military Recruiting personnel have a lot easier time recruiting in the inner city than those who recruit in suburban and rural areas. That's been true since the 70's [ post Viet Nam].

            The basis of most memes about how conservative the military is emanates from polls taken by the readers of Military Times and its' derivative papers.  

            The time has come to repair this country and care for its' veterans.

            by llbear on Tue Jul 08, 2014 at 10:08:07 AM PDT

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            •  I didn't talk to recruiters when I turned 18 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              llbear

              back in '69.  I sure as hell ain't going out of my way to talk to one now.  I know of several local kids that enlisted shortly after 9/11. The basis of my statement was cited above. If the pendulum has swung over to the Democrats, that’s great.

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