Skip to main content

View Diary: Germany Escalates Conflict Over US Spying (190 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Ask the Georgian and Ukrainians about... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OIL GUY, polecat, Tony Situ

    whether or not Nobel Prize Nominee Putin needs tanks.

    Or people in Grozny, if you can find any.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:04:45 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The Georgians and Ukrainians (8+ / 0-)

      are is a vastly different position from Germany on all sorts of levels. That comparison does not work.  

      •  Nation-states tend to look a couple steps ahead. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OIL GUY, NedSparks, polecat

        1914 demonstrated that very large threats can appear with remarkable speed.

        It's funny - I've seen people (including you, IIRC) writing all of this prose about how very reasonable and expected Russia's actions in Ukraine were because of its history of being invaded from the west and its oh-so-reasonable interest in having a sound security arrangement.

        But there were Russian troops rampaging through Germany more recently than the last invasion of Russia, so perhaps it's not so crazy to think that Germany would want a sound security arrangement with the rest of the West.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:14:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You you be so kind (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CenPhx, cybrestrike

          as to post a link to any comments that I made saying that Russia's actions were reasonable.

          •  OH, FFS. There is an actual topic here. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OIL GUY, Jeff Simpson, polecat

            Maybe you could stretch your neck enough to look around your ego and refresh your memory of what it was, instead of dodging the point and playing the victim?

            I ever wrote "IIRC," but really, who gives a shit?

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:23:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I predict you won't. I predict you drop the topic (0+ / 0-)

              entirely and do some more 'Help help I'm being oppressed' dancing.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:24:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You are the one who is dodging the point. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Victor Ward, itsbenj, cybrestrike

              Clearly your cloud of flack means that you are unable to back up your allegations.

              •  Wow, called it! (0+ / 0-)
                I predict you won't. I predict you drop the topic (0+ / 0-)
                entirely and do some more 'Help help I'm being oppressed' dancing.
                Lol.

                Was there ever a time when you cared more about what's going on in the world and in politics than about scoring points on Daily Kos comment threads?

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:27:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •   Nation-states tend to look a couple steps ahead. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jeff Simpson, Victor Ward

                1914 demonstrated that very large threats can appear with remarkable speed.

                It's funny - I've seen people writing all of this prose about how very reasonable and expected Russia's actions in Ukraine were because of its history of being invaded from the west and its oh-so-reasonable interest in having a sound security arrangement.

                But there were Russian troops rampaging through Germany more recently than the last invasion of Russia, so perhaps it's not so crazy to think that Germany would want a sound security arrangement with the rest of the West.

                Anything? Bueller? Bueller?

                Nope.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:29:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you're basing your analysis off WWII (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Richard Lyon, itsbenj, cybrestrike, KenBee

                  then you aren't really in the conversation. Germany is a part of NATO and nothing it has done changes that. Unless you're suggesting that Obama or Merkel are going to pull out of NATO.

                  You're also ignoring the massive amount of trade between Russia and Germany. Russia has far more to gain from trading with Germany than fighting a war, and vice versa. The constant hyperbole has led to otherwise reasonable folks like you to ignore the actual situation, which is unfortunate. Putin is not Hitler and Russia isn't going to invade Germany, period.

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:50:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As it turns out, WWII plays a meaningful role in (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    polecat

                    Germany's understanding of foreign policy.

                    The rest of the world tends to have a bit more interest in history and its lessons than you seem to. It's funny; you seemed to grasp this point when discussing Russia's historical interests, but you forget it entirely when it comes to Germany.

                    And, once again, your theory about trade preventing war among European powers who have a political confrontation sounds very reasonable. I'm sure it sounded very reasonable in June 1914, too. More recently, were were told that no two nations with McDonalds franchises had ever gone to war - right up until the Kosovo War.

                    Your claim that I'm ignoring the actual situation has no meaning beyond expressing disapproval of the conclusions I'm drawing. I've seen your comments, and I'm quite confident in saying that I don't need to defer to your allegedly superior knowledge of "the actual situation," thanks.

                    No, Putin isn't Hitler, but being Putin is bad enough. No, Puttin isn't going to invade Germany as long as it has a strong relationship with West, but that's exactly the point.

                    Art is the handmaid of human good.

                    by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:02:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sigh (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sparhawk, itsbenj, cybrestrike

                      If all you're going to do is pretend that I don't know history then I'll step out here. Continue to scream about how scared Germany is of Russia because of WWII, or something.

                      And, once again, your theory about trade preventing war among European powers who have a political confrontation sounds very reasonable. I'm sure it sounded very reasonable in June 1914, too. More recently, were were told that no two nations with McDonalds franchises had ever gone to war - right up until the Kosovo War.
                      In regards to the McDonalds thing, that was in fact false when it was first said. The US had invaded Panama a decade before that. But I'm not talking about the facile Neoliberal theory, I'm talking about practical political consequences. Germany has no practical reason to fear an invasion by Russia, additionally, giving Snowden asylum isn't going to get Germany kicked out of NATO, so I'm not sure what the issue here is.

                      It seems like people here are equating giving Snowden asylum with supporting Russia, which makes no sense. And Russia has been acting in a reasonable manner, however brutal and horrible it might be. Reasonable is not in any sense related to good. The US was acting reasonably when it gave cover to the coup in Honduras in 2009, and also when it supported the overthrow of Allende and the ensuing fascist regime. It wasn't the right thing to do, but it was reasonable to protect US interests. Russia is similarly protecting it's interests and any military action against Germany would fall well outside those bounds.

                      Not to mention of course the fact that the US supports the countries that lay between Germany and Russia, especially Poland. If Russia can't go through Poland then it isn't going to Germany.

                      Of course, there are many other benefits to being Allies with the US, but then again, Germany isn't pulling out of any treaties, or doing anything that would negate any treaties, to my knowledge. They want to remain on good terms with the US because it is the most powerful single country in the world, not because they're scared of Russia.

                      No War but Class War

                      by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:28:25 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Feel free to step out any time. (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't think you "don't know history." I think you choose to ignore it, and choose to ignore what Germany thinks about history, when it is convenient for you to do so. For example, when you claim that the experience of World War II and the lessons Russia and Germany learned and re-learned from it are irrelevant to their contemporary foreign policies or their understanding of their interests.

                        Germany has no practical reason to fear an invasion by Russia...so I'm not sure what the issue here is.
                        You could try scrolling up and seeing what started the conversation you jumped into. That might give you a good sense of what "the issue here is." Hint: it has something to do with Germany, history, its perception of its interests and security situation, and relations with the United States.

                        I'm not interested in following you into the pre-packaged anti-US talking points you wish to change the subject to.

                        Art is the handmaid of human good.

                        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:42:37 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "pre-packaged anti-US talking points " (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          cybrestrike

                          Yeah, you aren't interested in discussing the issue so you toss these idiotic lines in.

                          For example, when you claim that the experience of World War II and the lessons Russia and Germany learned and re-learned from it are irrelevant to their contemporary foreign policies or their understanding of their interests.
                          And yet you don't point out what they learned. You just repeat that Russia is expanding and imply that it is a threat to Germany. I call that completely absurd. Russia isn't going to invade Germany regardless of whether Germany offers Snowden asylum or not. Only someone who is caught in a cold war mindset would posit Russia as a real threat to Germany, which is exactly what you did.

                          What lessons exactly do you think Germany is taking from WWII? Don't invade Russia? That'd be a big one. Don't start a world war? What exactly other than "Russia is coming!!"

                          No War but Class War

                          by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:50:33 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Pie fight chest thumping. I knew it. (0+ / 0-)

                            You couldn't change the subject fast enough. The very first thing you just had to talk about is how very wronged you are by my word choice.

                            I've been discussion what Germany has learned multiple times throughout the thread. If you'd asked an hour ago about how history has influence German thought about its security interests and Russia, I would have happily engaged. At this point, you're just trying to posture as Not Wrong On The Internet, and I have no interest.

                            Good bye.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:04:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The subject is and was (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cybrestrike

                            why Germany should fear Russian tanks. If you wanted to discuss that you could have. You are the one that chose not to discuss it, not me. You've decided to equate Russia's actions in a few economic backwaters with it's relations with Germany. I think that's foolish.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:14:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "Only someone who is caught in a cold war mindset (0+ / 0-)

                            would posit Russia as a real threat to Germany."

                            Lol.

                            You don't have the foggiest idea how foreign relations and security policy and thought work.

                            I know you don't realize this, but anyone who does have a modicum of knowledge in that area would laugh at that statement.

                            Derp, Russia could never be a real threat to Germany! Only someone with a Cold War mindset could ever think that!

                            I'm taking back one of my earlier statements: I don't think you know history, outset of a very small set of your very favorite Cold War era topics.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:08:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When Europe was the center of the world (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cybrestrike

                            economically and militarily then there was a threat, certainly. Of course, the "threat" to Germany was that Germany would attack Russia and then Russia would defeat Germany with the help of other allies. That's what Germany could have learned from WWI and WWII. You're working from some mythic history where Germany didn't start WWI and WWII. Unless you live in some alternate universe where Russia was the aggressor in both World Wars.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:49:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just an FYI: (0+ / 0-)

                            German fears of a conflict with Russia have been a driving force of their foreign policy since before Germany was unified in the 19th century.

                            You know so little about history that you think something dating back hundreds of years is unique to the Cold War.

                            You need to start doing some reading. You don't seem to know anything except a tiny set of arguments you make up excuses to deploy.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:41:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Germany has not acted at all like a country (0+ / 0-)

                            that fears Russia. Not a bit. They basically shrugged at the illegal takeover of Crimea, which should have scared the crap out of them if you are correct. This idea that Germany has to be afraid of Russian tanks, or that Russia would wield more power with tanks than it currently does with oil and gas exports is just off.

                            Germany is safely behind a buffer of NATO countries, one that would remain should Germany leave NATO, which isn't going to happen. You were comparing Russia's actions in regards to Georgia, Chechnya, and Crimea with relations between Germany and Russia. Germany and Russia have certainly fought before but the majority of the history between them is not conflict, and where it is conflict, WWI and WWI specifically, Germany is to blame for the conflict.

                            What wars exactly are you thinking of that lead to the conclusion that Germany should fear Russia? The Seven Years War? Or do you think that Germany should fear Russia because when Germany starts wars with Russia it loses?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:02:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, look, you can say "nuh-uh." (0+ / 0-)

                            No matter how often you get corrected on the facts, you just keep pivoting back to your agenda.

                            We get it; you don't know, or give a damn, about actual history. You're just pushing a party line.

                            Fine, but stop abusing history to do it.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:26:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  At least I've got facts (0+ / 0-)

                            You haven't managed to present a single fact in all of this, just your unsupported opinion. You've yet again made this an ad hominem. Why don't  you run off and put your fingers in your ears and yell about  how scared Germany is of Russia some more. I'll be here in reality.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 08:21:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Another FYI: "Germany started WWI" is a shallow, (0+ / 0-)

                            pop-culture, propaganda-victim description of July 1914 that gets a great deal more wrong than right.

                            When I tell you that you don't know history, I'm not just being pissy in a blog fight. You don't know enough to even know what you don't understand.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:01:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, it's not (0+ / 0-)

                            It's a pretty accurate view. The idea that a war just happened and no one wanted it doesn't make any sense. Of course, Russia didn't exactly do so well in that war, so I'm not sure why it would scare Germany into fearing Russian tanks more than they worry about Russia cutting off the gas. The later is possible and the former virtually impossible even if Germany dropped out of NATO.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:09:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  OH, ffs, finding one source that says... (0+ / 0-)

                            what you want to hear is how a shallow, pop-culture propaganda victim goes about "learning" history.

                            Look, I'm not asking you. I'm not suggesting to you. I'm informing you: you're spewing ignorant nonsense that no educated person is going to take seriously.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:24:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Germany is neither Georgia nor Ukraine (6+ / 0-)

      Germany is an economic powerhouse and Russia has a hell of a lot more to gain from selling them oil and natural gas than attacking. Not to mention the fact that Germany does in fact have an army, and the fact that offering Snowden asylum and kicking out US spies won't negate NATO.

      This absurd belief that Russia is going to take over the world needs to die a quick death. It's absurdly simplistic and is based only on hyperbole around Putin and Hitler and a continuation of cold war rhetoric.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:45:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But Russia is Russia. (0+ / 0-)

        The statement in question was about Russian foreign policy, and whether their hydrocarbon exports mean they "don't need tanks." Clearly, that assertion isn't true.

        Your argument about intra-European bonds of trade, and countries' interest in avoiding war, sounds very sensible. It probably sounded very sensible six months before World War I broke out, too. Not everyone - especially not uber-nationalist politicians - has the same values as, say, your typical free-trader.

        The "absurd belief" in Russian military aggression is going to remain alive and well until we manage to go a few years without Russia rolling its tanks into someone else's territory. What am I supposed to believe, your very convent political theory or my lying eyes?

        It's too bad your obsession with your Cold War bogey man has blinded you so badly to what the Russian government is.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 08:56:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There was nothing like the current economic (4+ / 0-)

          integration prior to WWI, not even remotely close.

          The "absurd belief" in Russian military aggression is going to remain alive and well until we manage to go a few years without Russia rolling its tanks into someone else's territory. What am I supposed to believe, your very convent political theory or my lying eyes?
          Russia drove it tanks into specific territories, not just "someone else's territory." They, like the US, attack places they know they can beat and where they know they have some base of support. If we apply your analysis to the US then every country in the world has reason to assume we are going to invade at any moment.
          It's too bad your obsession with your Cold War bogey man has blinded you so badly to what the Russian government is.
          Cold War boogeyman? You're not making sense now. You are obsessed with the cold war boogeyman. I'm looking at what Russia is actually doing and not screaming that attacking a break away republic or two means that Russia is going to invade Germany at some point. You have the cold war rhetoric down pat. Domino theory once again.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:08:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So "This Time It's Different?" Never believe that. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jiffypop

            You make my point for me in your response: "They, like the US, attack places they know they can beat and where they know they have some base of support."

            Which is precisely why Germany will remain embedded in NATO and continue to have very close relations to the US, contrary to the claim that started this off: because it is that alliance that makes Germany someone that Russia knows it can't beat.

            Cold War boogeyman? You're not making sense now.
            Or you misunderstood something. Which one do you think it is?

            I'll put it in simpler terms: You're so obsessed with viewing American and NATO policy as an extension of the Cold War that you've blinded yourself to what is happening today, and why. You're determined to look at everything as merely a continuation of the Cold War, and you're blind to anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

            And no, you are not looking at Russia is actually doing. You're ignoring a great deal of what Russia is actually doing, and telling yourself how wise you are to do so. For example, you continue to flail away at the Domino theory straw man that no one has raised, just because it's the storyline you like to argue against.

            BTW, Ukraine is not Russia's "breakaway Republic." There's your Cold Ware mindset again. It's the second decade of the third millennium. Stop that.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:22:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Every time it's different (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk, cybrestrike

              WWI was not WWII. You keep saying that I'm wrong because of WWI but that Germany is looking at WWII. So which is it? Because they are completely different situations.

              And no, you are not looking at Russia is actually doing. You're ignoring a great deal of what Russia is actually doing, and telling yourself how wise you are to do so. For example, you continue to flail away at the Domino theory straw man that no one has raised, just because it's the storyline you like to argue against.

              BTW, Ukraine is not Russia's "breakaway Republic." There's your Cold Ware mindset again. It's the second decade of the third millennium. Stop that.

              Not Ukraine, Crimea. And Chechnya. And Georgia. Russia is pretty obvious in this respect. If you can't understand that what Russia held in the past is connected to protecting what it sees as it's interest then you're purposely ignoring a big part of the issue.

              And while no one has used the words 'domino theory' they have most certainly claimed that this is part of Russia's plan to take over the world. You're nonsense rhetoric about how afraid Germany has to be of Russia is based on nothing, nothing at all. In fact, you haven't even given any predictions about what will happen. Russia has acted almost exactly as I said they would when the nonsense in Crimea began. Take Crimea, push troops to the border to appear aggressive, then pull back to look reasonable and so the "west" would win. I didn't buy into the nonsense you and other were spreading about how Russia is going to take over everything!

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:38:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Those who refuse to learn history are doomed. (0+ / 0-)

                You can continue to argue the irrelevance of history. I assure you, the Germans do not agree with you.

                For example, unlike you, the Germans and Russians understand that World War I, World War II, and quite a bit of history before and after that have some things in common as they relate to German-Russian relations and security interests. I'll leave it to you to puzzle out what they might be, and how they relate to this conversation.

                Just a heads up: writing that World War I and World War II are "completely different situations" is not the best way to get people take your thoughts about history seriously.

                Not Ukraine, Crimea.
                Thank you, Mr. Putin. Your hand, it seems to be a bit tipped.
                You're nonsense rhetoric about how afraid Germany has to be of Russia is based on nothing, nothing at all.
                Points, laughs. Please, tell me some more about your awesome knowledge of history.
                In fact, you haven't even given any predictions about what will happen...I didn't buy into the nonsense you and other were spreading about how Russia is going to take over everything!
                OK, when you contradict yourself like this so quickly, it means you've gotten a little emotional, and might want to take a little time away from the conversation.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:49:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  A complete lack of content again (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cybrestrike

                  Do you have any historical points to make except the Germany learned from WWII? That's not even a point, it's a statement backed with nothing and used to support nothing except some sort amorphous point about me being wrong.

                  OK, when you contradict yourself like this so quickly, it means you've gotten a little emotional, and might want to take a little time away from the conversation.
                  Yes, I'm just too emotional. You caught me. You are claiming that Germany should fear Russian tanks. That's bullshit.

                  And I'm in no way arguing the irrelevancy of history. I'm saying that you're making shit up and just saying "Learn from history!"

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:57:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Don't you realize how silly you look? (0+ / 0-)

                    Did you just pick a "This is what I say to people when I'm angry" comment at random?

                    Yeah, complete lack of content. Total, utter void.

                    Good bye.

                    Art is the handmaid of human good.

                    by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:09:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site