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View Diary: Germany Escalates Conflict Over US Spying (190 comments)

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  •  Feel free to step out any time. (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think you "don't know history." I think you choose to ignore it, and choose to ignore what Germany thinks about history, when it is convenient for you to do so. For example, when you claim that the experience of World War II and the lessons Russia and Germany learned and re-learned from it are irrelevant to their contemporary foreign policies or their understanding of their interests.

    Germany has no practical reason to fear an invasion by Russia...so I'm not sure what the issue here is.
    You could try scrolling up and seeing what started the conversation you jumped into. That might give you a good sense of what "the issue here is." Hint: it has something to do with Germany, history, its perception of its interests and security situation, and relations with the United States.

    I'm not interested in following you into the pre-packaged anti-US talking points you wish to change the subject to.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:42:37 AM PDT

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    •  "pre-packaged anti-US talking points " (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cybrestrike

      Yeah, you aren't interested in discussing the issue so you toss these idiotic lines in.

      For example, when you claim that the experience of World War II and the lessons Russia and Germany learned and re-learned from it are irrelevant to their contemporary foreign policies or their understanding of their interests.
      And yet you don't point out what they learned. You just repeat that Russia is expanding and imply that it is a threat to Germany. I call that completely absurd. Russia isn't going to invade Germany regardless of whether Germany offers Snowden asylum or not. Only someone who is caught in a cold war mindset would posit Russia as a real threat to Germany, which is exactly what you did.

      What lessons exactly do you think Germany is taking from WWII? Don't invade Russia? That'd be a big one. Don't start a world war? What exactly other than "Russia is coming!!"

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 09:50:33 AM PDT

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      •  Pie fight chest thumping. I knew it. (0+ / 0-)

        You couldn't change the subject fast enough. The very first thing you just had to talk about is how very wronged you are by my word choice.

        I've been discussion what Germany has learned multiple times throughout the thread. If you'd asked an hour ago about how history has influence German thought about its security interests and Russia, I would have happily engaged. At this point, you're just trying to posture as Not Wrong On The Internet, and I have no interest.

        Good bye.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:04:03 AM PDT

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        •  The subject is and was (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cybrestrike

          why Germany should fear Russian tanks. If you wanted to discuss that you could have. You are the one that chose not to discuss it, not me. You've decided to equate Russia's actions in a few economic backwaters with it's relations with Germany. I think that's foolish.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:14:23 AM PDT

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      •  "Only someone who is caught in a cold war mindset (0+ / 0-)

        would posit Russia as a real threat to Germany."

        Lol.

        You don't have the foggiest idea how foreign relations and security policy and thought work.

        I know you don't realize this, but anyone who does have a modicum of knowledge in that area would laugh at that statement.

        Derp, Russia could never be a real threat to Germany! Only someone with a Cold War mindset could ever think that!

        I'm taking back one of my earlier statements: I don't think you know history, outset of a very small set of your very favorite Cold War era topics.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:08:08 AM PDT

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        •  When Europe was the center of the world (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cybrestrike

          economically and militarily then there was a threat, certainly. Of course, the "threat" to Germany was that Germany would attack Russia and then Russia would defeat Germany with the help of other allies. That's what Germany could have learned from WWI and WWII. You're working from some mythic history where Germany didn't start WWI and WWII. Unless you live in some alternate universe where Russia was the aggressor in both World Wars.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 10:49:33 AM PDT

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          •  Just an FYI: (0+ / 0-)

            German fears of a conflict with Russia have been a driving force of their foreign policy since before Germany was unified in the 19th century.

            You know so little about history that you think something dating back hundreds of years is unique to the Cold War.

            You need to start doing some reading. You don't seem to know anything except a tiny set of arguments you make up excuses to deploy.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 12:41:29 PM PDT

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            •  Germany has not acted at all like a country (0+ / 0-)

              that fears Russia. Not a bit. They basically shrugged at the illegal takeover of Crimea, which should have scared the crap out of them if you are correct. This idea that Germany has to be afraid of Russian tanks, or that Russia would wield more power with tanks than it currently does with oil and gas exports is just off.

              Germany is safely behind a buffer of NATO countries, one that would remain should Germany leave NATO, which isn't going to happen. You were comparing Russia's actions in regards to Georgia, Chechnya, and Crimea with relations between Germany and Russia. Germany and Russia have certainly fought before but the majority of the history between them is not conflict, and where it is conflict, WWI and WWI specifically, Germany is to blame for the conflict.

              What wars exactly are you thinking of that lead to the conclusion that Germany should fear Russia? The Seven Years War? Or do you think that Germany should fear Russia because when Germany starts wars with Russia it loses?

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:02:16 PM PDT

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              •  Oh, look, you can say "nuh-uh." (0+ / 0-)

                No matter how often you get corrected on the facts, you just keep pivoting back to your agenda.

                We get it; you don't know, or give a damn, about actual history. You're just pushing a party line.

                Fine, but stop abusing history to do it.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:26:03 PM PDT

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                •  At least I've got facts (0+ / 0-)

                  You haven't managed to present a single fact in all of this, just your unsupported opinion. You've yet again made this an ad hominem. Why don't  you run off and put your fingers in your ears and yell about  how scared Germany is of Russia some more. I'll be here in reality.

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Fri Jul 11, 2014 at 08:21:36 AM PDT

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          •  Another FYI: "Germany started WWI" is a shallow, (0+ / 0-)

            pop-culture, propaganda-victim description of July 1914 that gets a great deal more wrong than right.

            When I tell you that you don't know history, I'm not just being pissy in a blog fight. You don't know enough to even know what you don't understand.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:01:24 PM PDT

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            •  No, it's not (0+ / 0-)

              It's a pretty accurate view. The idea that a war just happened and no one wanted it doesn't make any sense. Of course, Russia didn't exactly do so well in that war, so I'm not sure why it would scare Germany into fearing Russian tanks more than they worry about Russia cutting off the gas. The later is possible and the former virtually impossible even if Germany dropped out of NATO.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 01:09:11 PM PDT

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              •  OH, ffs, finding one source that says... (0+ / 0-)

                what you want to hear is how a shallow, pop-culture propaganda victim goes about "learning" history.

                Look, I'm not asking you. I'm not suggesting to you. I'm informing you: you're spewing ignorant nonsense that no educated person is going to take seriously.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Thu Jul 10, 2014 at 04:24:10 PM PDT

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