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View Diary: Threatening Traditions - Part III.a: Traditional Sexuality and Choice (163 comments)

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  •  My favorite comeback line on the question of (15+ / 0-)

    choice, for a long time, has been "So, when did you choose to be straight?" It's nice to watch the apoplectic sputtering that goes on.

    That aside for the moment, for most of the gays and lesbians I know well enough to talk seriously about it, if there was a choice, it certainly wasn't either a conscious or a deliberate one.

    On the third hand, are masturbatory fantasies to be a signifier? Because my range of choices when I'm turning myself on might legitimately be said to be at least as strong an indication of potential sexual direction.

    You wanted questions, fortunately - I've got a lot more of them than I do answers.

    In a strictly patriarchal society, what sexual orientation women have simply does not matter, for the most part. As long as control is strong enough, it will make no difference to whether they are part of the reproductive structure of the society, since that is determined by the men who consider them chattel. There's a strong possibility that under a structure such as the harem, lesbian proclivity might be seen as a positive, since it may make the structure easier to manage. There might even be a legitimate place in the structure for homosexuality, since fewer men will actually get the chance at a male/female relationship unless they first acquire wealth and power.

    I'll quit rambling for the moment - the real question is how to phrase some of this in a way that the blockheads who've never really thought about the concept of sexuality and what its permutations might be, are forced to at least do a double-take, and possibly to consider alternatives.

    mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

    by serendipityisabitch on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 05:14:42 PM PDT

    •  The question (10+ / 0-)

      "when did you choose to be straight?" I find fascinating.  I want to say -- and this may plainly be a false analogy, but I'll run with it -- I want to say, "When did you choose to speak English?"  Clearly speaking English is contingent, in no way determined -- yet it's not something any native speaker chooses.  (This is a related but different issue: I think 'choice' is not even the right concept.)

      "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

      by Silencio on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 05:21:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmm. Ask a child who's raised in a bi-lingual (9+ / 0-)

        household that one. I'd be interested in that answer myself. Otherwise, very much not the same question.

        mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

        by serendipityisabitch on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 05:28:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I would suggest a better question is (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silencio, blueoasis, Avilyn, NancyWH

        whether/when the person chose to be a parent. Not just biologically but actively. It is linked to sexuality for many of us. And those who don't have the 'natural' inclination get a s#!tload of criticism about it.

        I certainly see a continuum that has not been explored very open mindedly. It is part of the struggle of social sciences to NOT expect humans to be easily categorized. We have too many variables, over a long period of time, to expect anything but a lot of variation. The more sexuality has become shared, with pornography, etc. the more variations are accepted. The more parenting has become part time, less involved, the less influence compared to peers.

        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

        by Ginny in CO on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 06:41:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you suggesting (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Avilyn, NancyWH

          a certain social coercion involved in parenting?  That whether there's some sort of biological, I dunno, urge to reproduce, that there's also a hefty amount of social coercion also?  Am I reading your comment correctly?

          "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

          by Silencio on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:01:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's definitely social coercion (5+ / 0-)

            and stigmatism if you choose to remain childless or proclaim that you don't like children very much.

            I've been married for over 12 yrs now, got married when I was 25.  Usually the first question everyone asked after the initial "Congratulations" was "When are you having kids?".   It was a given that we would be having kids, just a question on the timing.  And nobody wanted to take the "We're not" seriously.  Even my Gyn at my yearly check-ups would ask to make sure we still weren't planning on kids before renewing my BC script.  Even when you explain to them that you don't have the patience or the temperament to be a parent, and you know this about yourself, they try to convince you "Oh, it's different when it's your own kid."  And you want me to take that risk?  I don't think so!

            And if you let people know that you don't like kids very much?  Well, you may as well be a monster.  People don't seem to understand that someone might not like the little devils running around screaming/constantly demanding attention/never-ending questions/not being able to live your life the way you want on your schedule because you've got this little dependent thing that has to come first.   No thanks.

            Erm.   OK, sorry, that was a bit more rant-ish than I'd intended originally, but it struck a nerve.  :-)

            Miss Aji? She blogs here now.
            I’m a feminist because the message is still "don’t get raped" not "don’t rape."

            by Avilyn on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 09:49:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think this is on the money. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avilyn, NancyWH, Daulphin

              I think you're describing heterosexism in action, with the many (usually unacknowledged) assumptions about THE purpose of sex, THE purpose of lifetime commitment, and of course THE life plans of women (or what "should" be included in a woman's life plan).

              It's telling to think about how many adults, married or not, who choose not to reproduce have to account for (explain) that decision, when, on the other hand, people who do reproduce never have to justify the decision (unless racism or classism is involved).  Yet it seems clear to me that, in some or many cases, choosing not to have children is the more responsible decision.  At times, in fact, I think it could easily be argued that some people are irresponsible to have children.  Yet even to whisper that sounds presumptuous and (I'm sure to some) offensive.

              "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

              by Silencio on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 10:11:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Just in case you're checking back this far. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Silencio

              Thanks for the very clear response from someone who is coming from that perspective. This is part of gender identity that is so embedded many people really don't get that it is normal for some NOT to want the child/parenting experience.  

              I had an overwhelming desire to have children and be around a lot of their childhoods. I had two, enjoyed them and being a parent thoroughly. And TOTALLY believe the earth will be much better off if those who don't want to be parents are left to follow their own bliss. (Climate scientists have projected a worldwide imperative of 1 child per family to reduce the population to a sustainable level < 2 billion by 2100. Right. Will we threaten parents that only the 1st child will get vaccines?)

              What would we have missed if Dr Zeus had not decided he would entertain other people's children instead of having his own.??

              "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

              by Ginny in CO on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 09:58:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry I had an important meeting (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Silencio

            Wednesday am to prepare for and had to not come back.

            Fortunately Avilyn came by and wrote a great response from someone who's lived that role. (My response to her below.)

            My ex and I had immediately agreed on a ZPG family. We got one of each and neither plans to have any of their own due to the overpopulation issue. Interestingly, their millennial peers are also more into this than the boomers or gen x.

            I pretty much consider marriage about designating your committed sex partner. If that results in a family, ok. But as my daughter likes to point out, there are now almost 30 ways to create a child if standard biology doesn't do it. You don't have to be married.

            Because this just happened Monday. I was on my way to an appt on the bus when a young gal got on with 3 of the most beautiful children you could ever imagine. Probably 18 mo, 3 and 5. Well dressed, well behaved, while mom was on her cell phone explaining that she and their father are not married (but are committed to raising their children) and are almost out of time where they are getting shelter and she was looking for another place.

            I could not help but hear the cell phone conversations, including that she had had to leave her job ... reason I didn't hear. Did all I could to distract the kids when they got fussy so she could focus. Then Dad joined them, clearly beloved by those kids and also very down/overwhelmed.

             Small world.  Same family, all at the same stop on my way to the appt Weds am. Looking just as nicely dressed, well behaved and not quite as overwhelmed. Being an atheist, I hope a lot. So why have they not gotten married?? Lotsa different ways to do life.

            "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

            by Ginny in CO on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:34:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'm a straight guy who thinks it's a given (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silencio, Wee Mama, NancyWH

        biological fact ;)

        I think that language is the wrong analogy - a better one might be 'when did you choose to have color vision' (as opposed to R-G or other color-blindness). But the preference for that analogy is reinforced by my own notion that sexual preference is determined by biology (the hardware) as opposed to higher cognitive functioning - such as learning a language (the software) - if you will permit a crude analogy of my own as I criticize yours ;)

        •  You're at least the second person to say (4+ / 0-)

          my analogy to language is a non-starter.  I considered an analogy to color perception and handedness, too.  I guess part of my problem is that I'm not clear what work I want an analogy to do, anyway.

          "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

          by Silencio on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:00:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, since it generated discussion, (5+ / 0-)

            you can't call it a 'non-starter', now, can you? ;)

            Look, I know we can agree that 'proof by analogy is fraud'.

            And 'clearing the decks' is an important part of this discussion. So I think you have initiated something really important here. Good for you for doing this!

            "only Silencio could go to China, amirite?" :D

            •  I can run with your analogy to language (4+ / 0-)

              There are seven billion people on this planet making decisions in 4000 some odd languages.

              Its not unreasonable to suggest that language to some degree reflects culture and the behavior considered normal and heterosexual in different cultures ranges widely.

              For example men in dresses holding hands, and caressing eachother while they talk, kissing and painting their faces and otherwise behaving in a manner we might consider effeminate is typical for young warriors in some tribes.

              The choice appears to evolve from mothers painting babies and dressing them and teaching them to be elaborately affectionate with one another that's just how they grow up

              "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

              by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:11:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Recc'd for OMO pic (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                serendipityisabitch, Silencio

                This is the most aesthetically developed visual culture in the world, imho. Sorry for the OT, but do folks know their habitat is in danger of being stripped from them to grow ethanol from sugar cane?

                As for the questions raised in this diary, they are indeed thorny and loaded ones, most easily answered with still more questions.

                 A teacher of cranio-sacral therapy, Hugh Milne once told me that the less good sex a person got, the more they were likely to be sticking their long noses into others' bedrooms and making censorious judgements.

                It rang true then, 16 years ago, and evidence keeps piling up in favor. If the repug show-world is straight vanilla sex with one's lifetime, opposite gender companion, oops spouse, then why are so many of their most vociferous blowhard fans of that lifestyle getting caught with their dicks in the 'wrong' places?

                Seeing how naturally omnisexual the animal kingdom can be suggests to me that we are all bisexual by birth, but strong conditioning plays a part in how stuck the closet door is jammed.

                The other topic that comes to mind is bisexuality and monogamy, as someone posted upthread. Especially since the HIV years, many women in relationship may be fine with the idea of their partner being able to swing both ways, but they are deeply (and understandably) disturbed by their partner acting out for reasons of sexual hygiene and infection risk factors. They wouldn't want them going off the reservation with someone of either gender.

                And them's my profound thoughts upon this hoary matter!

                Thanks for starting an interesting discussion, silencio!

                why? just kos..... *just cause*

                by melo on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:17:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  HIV was more of a constraint in the eighties (0+ / 0-)

                  People today assume they can get tested and use protection and be safe having consensual sex in most places but I suppose there are still enough people getting the disease from rape, forced marital congress with HIV positive males, people who are too impaired to check their partners have been recently tested and those who cave to the claim that condoms dull the sensation to put the lie to that.

                  "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                  by rktect on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:01:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  You hit on something with some serious historical (13+ / 0-)

      noteworthiness:

      In a strictly patriarchal society, what sexual orientation women have simply does not matter, for the most part. As long as control is strong enough, it will make no difference to whether they are part of the reproductive structure of the society, since that is determined by the men who consider them chattel.
      Most Western countries in the modern day (since, say, the 17th Century or even before) that had "sodomy" laws did NOT have laws banning lesbian assignations. Because "what sexual orientation women have simply does not matter, &c.)

      In a way, that's one of the worst sexist stings. Chattel indeed, or as the GOP might call them today, "baby factories".

      As for masturbatory fantasies, that's an interesting question though I think a Freudian analysis of that was out of date by the time Freud finished practicing. What turns us on in private is not always what turns us on "in public", and I think it is long past time for everyone to be liberated on that front. That's a shout out to all those bi folks out there!

      SPES MEA IN DEO EST.

      by commonmass on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 05:24:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Women can't get women pregnant and so don't (6+ / 0-)

        threaten inheritance.



        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:52:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But... but, WeeMama, men can't get men pregnant (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Silencio, Wee Mama, FarWestGirl, NancyWH

          either, so sodomy laws wouldn't apply under that argument, either.

          Besides, knowing the human capacity for infinite self-deception, issues of inheritance for infertile or incapable males are as likely as not to have been resolved by the introduction of a third party into the equation.

          mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

          by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 12:20:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In that context consider Genesis (5+ / 0-)

          The old testament stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Abram and Sarai, the various families of Moses tell us a lot about what people thought might influence inheritance.

          For example can a son be adopted and inherit?

          Can a favorite of a Patriarch be designated an heir even without any blood ties?

          Is an inheritance something that just goes to the legitimate heirs of a legitimate marriage.

          What about the entitlement to an inheritance from a sister wife who is barren versus the offspring of a handmaiden?

          What if the sister wife routinely goes with other men, has them visit her in her tent and then gets impregnated by a god or an angel after the handmaiden has produced a first born son.

          Can an inheritance be traded away?

          Can a lesbian matriarch or regent choose another amazon to be her heir?

          "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

          by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:25:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I musta missed something when I read Genesis. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Silencio, NancyWH, melo
            Can a lesbian matriarch or regent choose another amazon to be her heir?
            ;)

            So, how do we use this to undermine this society's concept of Traditional Sexuality? In a way that will be heard?

            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

            by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:26:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Lilith as living in the crown of ianna's tree (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              serendipityisabitch, NancyWH

              First take the Book of Genesis as largely a collection of earlier stories such as the epic of Gilgamesh. Particularly as Akkadian is the root language from which early semitic roots derive.

              In Judaism Lilith is the first wife of Adam and created as a paired opposite, equal but different. A female demon unwilling to be subservient to men in a marriage. "A hag whose screeches are like those of an owl."

              Phenomenologically her form is that of the Amanita mushroom used in antiquity as an intoxicant that granted visions. Since its also lethal in some cases Lilith as drugs generally can be one mean bitch to mess with.

              She stands as a proud frontally facing nude her talons embedded in the backs of the lions she stands on and at her feet she is  flanked by owls which makes her both wise and fierce.

              Her talons or roots are impressive. In her hands she holds the rods and reels of line used to measure weigh and judge. As rod and circle they are also also symbols of sexual congress which in her hands are taken as symbols of promiscuity and harlotry

              Lilith was a goddess of the night, of lust, and a symbol of a woman's power to know for herself what was right and proper as regarded a time for reproduction.

              Inanna is the goddess of love – but not marriage. She is connected with extramarital sex and sensual affairs, prowling streets and taverns for sexual adventure.[15] In the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh points out Inanna's infamous ill-treatment of her lovers. Inanna also has a very complicated relationship with her lover, Dumuzi, in "Inanna's Descent to the Underworld"
              Inanna is the Sumerian goddess of feminine lust


              The semitic root L-Y-L layil in Hebrew, as layl in Arabic, means "night". Talmudic and Yiddish use of Lilith follows Hebrew.
              She is considered by Inanna to be "the zu bird living in the crown of the huluppu tree whose wood she plans to use to build a new throne" or in other words a power with which to oppose the Patriarchal rule of men.
              In Akkadian the terms lili and līlītu mean spirits. Some uses of līlītu are listed in The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (CAD, 1956, L.190), in Wolfram von Soden's Akkadisches Handwörterbuch (AHw, p. 553), and Reallexikon der Assyriologie (RLA, p. 47).[5]

              The Sumerian she-demons lili have no etymologic relation to Akkadian lilu, "evening".[6]

              Archibald Sayce (1882)[7] considered that Hebrew lilit (or lilith) Hebrew: לילית‎; and Akkadian: līlītu are from proto-Semitic. Charles Fossey (1902)[8] has this literally translating to "female night being/demon", although cuneiform inscriptions exist where Līlīt and Līlītu refers to disease-bearing wind spirits.[citation needed] Another possibility is association not with "night", but with "wind", thus identifying the Akkadian Lil-itu as a loan from the Sumerian lil, "air" — specifically from Ninlil, "lady air", goddess of the south wind (and wife of Enlil) — and itud, "moon".[citation needed]

              You have to understand Ianna as a "lady of the night" (female, night being, demon) and Lilith as leaving Adam who wished to make her subservient, to mate with archangel Samael who is the accuser, seducer and destroyer of men.
              Along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers were many shrines and temples dedicated to Inanna. The House of Heaven (Sumerian: e2-anna; Cuneiform:

              "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

              by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 10:23:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you're dodging the question, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Silencio, NancyWH

                but it was a good dodge, and I'm reccing it anyway. ;)

                mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 11:55:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  For some reason the Qetesh half of the post (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  serendipityisabitch, NancyWH

                  where I got into answering your question in more depth got lost. Qetesh or in hebrew Kodesh is the Holy sacred prostitute who men would visit at Kadesh or the highplaces where the watersheds that men farmed had their source in the ba maat's of places of desire as an eros for wisdom.

                  In the above the Egyptian version of Inanna/Lilith, the frontally facing nude standing on lions offers the peace of the Lotus blooms to Min, the mummy whose erect phallus symbolises Egyptian Resurrection from the dead, and Anat's spear of war to Reshef the Syrian who constantly menaced the Egyptian province of Canaan about the time the sons of Israel decided to undertake its conquest and the Egyptians ended up warring with Megiddo for all of the 18th and a good part of the 19th dynasties.

                  Now as I understand your question what you were really after was some support for my assertion that there was ever any biblical reference to some Amazonian matriarchy in which women like Jezebel had little need of men and matrimony to determine their reproductive choices or sexuality and had the power to make or break kings and determine the rightful inheritance to regions as large as the province of Canaan.

                  I offer the wisdom of Solomon who was intoxicated by the Queen of Sheba, (her desire) visited the high places to offer worship to Asherah or Hathor, and in the end saw his kingdom fall to the worshippers of She, the queen who stands on the backs of Assyrian lions.

                  "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                  by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 12:49:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, no. The question was: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    NancyWH
                    So, how do we use this to undermine this society's concept of Traditional Sexuality? In a way that will be heard?
                    For me, the rest of it was kind of like doing a full Grimm's reference based on Disney's Snow White. Interesting, but not relevant. But it had some graphics I hadn't seen, and you know your stuff.

                    mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                    by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 12:54:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Traditional sexuality wasn't too prudish (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      NancyWH

                      Men went with men and women with women.

                      I like your phrase "to undermine this societies concept of traditional sexuality". In my estimation that is exactly what the traditional exercise of sexuality is all about, to help people live their fantasies and make them real.

                      While it may have aggravated the priesthood the made for TV Borgia and Thrones lifestyle is probably pretty close to accurate for traditional sexuality as more of a tool than innocent love or lust.

                      Priests who traditionally for some 3500 years now have inhabited a culture in which "celibate" men preferred disposable young boys for sex to the rigors of the marriage bed in which they were tied to wives who became shrewish hags that screeched as owls were not making an uncommon choice of lifestyle.

                      Boys who looked like innocent maidens but were in fact crafty and seductive traps were themselves not uncommon.

                      Young noble men and women looking to live the life and have the power of priests and priestesses as accountant, scribe or counselor to the rich and famous abounded.

                      Throughout history the essence of sexuality outside of marriage was not to encourage fertility by any means necessary but rather to seduce and by seduction gain power.

                      I'll use the example of Frank Underwood (House of Cards) and his somewhat normal relationships with wives and lovers to illustrate my point.

                      "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                      by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 01:20:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Okay. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        NancyWH, serendipityisabitch

                        Your reflections are interesting.  But they're anthropological and sweepingly historical.  This diary is about sexual politics and the rhetoric of those politics in today's world.  The diary is very specific and contextualized.  Thus, as interesting as it is, this sub-thread does not advance that line of questioning (at least not yet).  The diary does not address sex in Babylonia or among the Borgias.  It's about our political context.

                        "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

                        by Silencio on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 01:34:58 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  When we look at what is normal or traditional (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          melo

                          going back as far as you like, with the exception of some puritanical Victorian dogma about what should be right and proper, Heterosexuality is no more normal than homosexuality, especially as regards sexual politics.

                          Lets be specific and contextualized. Take New Orleans, New York, London  or Paris in the gay nineties. You don't have to go back to the Borgias. Take Washington DC in the fifties with Ray Cohn and J Edgar Hoover.

                          Going beyond gender and diversity look at the role reversal. Traditional women were not confined to the kitchen or laundry in building the west.

                          Let me put it to you that traditional sexuality in the fifties involved wife swapping in Levittown.

                          The sexual politics of Madison Avenue attempted to make women second class citizens, that isn't their traditional role in the Americas.

                          In the twenties with flappers, in the thirties, with the Amelia Earheart's Fanny Vandegrift's and Nelie Bly's who took men's challenges to be explorers in their own right and then wrote about it; in the forties with Rosy the riveter, women in unions and also in combat.

                          In the sixties women who engaged in sexual politics started to be called feminists and in my experience women have proven themselves to have transcended sexual politics to be able to deal with men as people.

                          "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                          by rktect on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 03:39:23 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Wait, what? Your view of the problem is that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Silencio

                            women don't have a problem with a patriarchal system any more?

                            Perhaps I could supply you with a few recent links to diaries which might give you a bit more recent input?

                            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                            by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 03:43:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, there is a war on woman raging (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            melo

                            Women are going to win that war, are winning that war with leaders like Wendy Davis, Allison Grimes, Elizabeth Warren and in my neck of the woods Shenna Bellows.

                            You have victory in your grasp if you get out your vote as I fully expect you will. Then it gets reclassified as no longer a problem just for women but a problem for all of us who join with you in trying to get rid of all the Republicans who tie themselves to such ideas.

                            "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                            by rktect on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:05:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Tell you what (0+ / 0-)

                            Let's talk about the specific question posed in the diary, as almost everyone else has done.  

                            "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

                            by Silencio on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 03:47:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The diary is addressing sexual orientation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            melo

                            And conservatives incredibly naive approach to it following what they consider to be their traditional values.

                            Sexual orientation is something that is biologically innate, or else it is something that is freely chosen.  Sexual orientation is "natural" or it is "chosen."
                            That suggests sexual orientation is something fixed in place. You are born with it that's who you are. For many individuals that may in fact be the case, but for others it doesn't begin to address the range of options.

                            My perspective on that is Republicans have adopted as their traditional values a number of Victorian myths. The list is long and jaw dropping on the level of Aikens "Women have ways to shut that process down" jaw dropping.

                            My take on sexual orientation is that it evolves according to set and setting much like political orientation

                            If you go back and look at sexual orientation historically it has a very wide range of positions that make us as a species what I would consider opportunistic sexual omnivores.

                            Our orientation as a species tends to evolve according to whats available to forage and in that process occupy any number of niches that are not strictly speaking CIS, gay, lesbian, bi or trans.

                            In some cases our orientation can be all of the above as the situation warrants. People can occupy a committed relationship as a couple that dates other couples or individuals pansexually. For many its not nearly as limited  a menu as traditional values would suggest.

                            "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

                            by rktect on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:26:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  "When did you choose to start having gay sex?" (4+ / 0-)

      You're dealing with people who basically assume that all people are born straight but, for one reason or another, choose to do gay things.  In the most literal sense, they're correct that most homosexual acts (as well as all the cultural trappings of the identity) are not coerced and therefore are chosen.  When you subscribe to a worldview in which nefarious forces are always and everywhere at war with "nature and nature's God", it's easy to see gay as something being deliberately introduced and cultivated in individuals, who otherwise might well have gone on to become "normal".

      Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

      by Visceral on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 10:14:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mostly, I'm dealing with people whose whole (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silencio, NancyWH

        thought in the matter, if it can be called thought, is that gay sex is icky. It's a way to kick the gears into motion, watch the flakes of rust start to fall off, and maybe let some sunlight in.

        mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

        by serendipityisabitch on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 11:59:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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