Skip to main content

View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: Republican gay rights reboot and other bedtime stories (262 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Alternative medicine? (13+ / 0-)

    Is that like alternative auto mechanics or alternative electrical engineering? If you don't want to believe in science, just say magic.

    •  More like preventive or unsubstantiated medicine (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DRo, cordgrass

      I think that there may be quacks in both mainstream medicine and alternative medicine.

      There is one constant--there are results that are proven to be linked to treatment and results that are not (or not yet).

      A lot of so-called "alternative" medicine is simply wellness practice.  It is now being taught in mainstream medical schools, and studied for its efficacy. This includes traditional Eastern medicine like acupuncture and yoga as well as mindfulness practice.

      I think that physicians like Andrew Weil "integrate" the two nicely.

      History is a guide, not a destination.

      by NCJan on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 05:40:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  science? The science of what? (3+ / 2-)
      Recommended by:
      emmasnacker, Portia Elm, TerryDarc
      Hidden by:
      dandy lion, mconvente

      Definitely not healing. It's the science of marketing toxic drugs to stay rich. Capitalism in other words. Not unusual, but stop believing in stuff just because people smarter than you say it's ok. You have to decide for yourself.  Doctors are mostly well-meaning people. But what do they practice? They prescribe pharmaceuticals (and surgery). End of story. If you believe that pharmaceuticals are the entire scope of healing, you really ought to extricate your head from you ass.

      •  I would be dead right now (7+ / 0-)

        if I hadn't had surgery and antibiotics when I was very young.  

        •  Makes me think of Steve Jobs (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SNFinVA, varro, mconvente, TerryDarc, dewtx

          Mister Genius does something monumentally stupid like lose a life-saving year and a half trying Alternative Medicine because he was scared of surgery.

          "If this Studebaker had anymore Atomic Space-Age Style, you'd have to be an astronaut with a geiger counter!"

          by Stude Dude on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:28:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Steve Jobs had pancreatic cancer largely curable (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Stude Dude, dewtx

            That is the sad part. We all go a lot non-rational when our life is threatened. Much pancreatic cancer is deadly, one of the worst, but apparently (from what I recall reading) Jobs' cancer was not that. He avoided for a long time a classic western med approach and paid the supreme price.

            Read this: science based medicine

            Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

            by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 09:48:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Me too. Had an appendectomy for appendicitis in (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mconvente, TerryDarc

          1970. Thankfully this is a relatively straightforward surgery for a condition that can get bad quickly if not dealt with promptly. Without it I wouldn't be here today. And I like being here today.

          I am proud to be able to say that I got the chance to vote for Ann Richards for Governor of Texas, twice!

          by dewtx on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:38:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I would be dead, too... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TerryDarc, dewtx

          ...without antibiotics.

          My grandfather died in 1941 from pneumonia that would have been easily cured ten years later.

          You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

          by varro on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:44:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Science. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mconvente, TerryDarc, emelyn, Catsmeat, Yahzi

        The foundation of a reality based community. Learn to live with it.

        •  A reality-based community would study (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fabienne, Portia Elm, NCJan

          all approaches to healing that show promising initial results, not just those that are patentable and come in a capsule.  But that's not the case in the U.S.

          •  true but (0+ / 0-)

            then that's not science, that's corporate profit-taking.

            We shouldn't confuse the two.

          •  And we do... (0+ / 0-)

            ...some therapies are pure BS. Some may be effective. The NIH has an alternative medicine division, spending money on testing therapies that are hopeful.

            But Energy Medicine? Homeopathy? Not with my tax dollars nor should we be wasting the NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine

            It's not all a plot by big Pharma to keep the truth hidden. It IS a matter or resources and money.

            If Energy Med or Homeopathy wants to be accepted, show small pilot studies to the NCAAM. I'm sure they'd be happy to find something that works against intractable medical problems.

            Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

            by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 09:54:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We should start with vitamins, minerals (0+ / 0-)

              and other supplements.  Fish oil in particular.

              http://www.oilofpisces.com/

              •  I change my supplement regiment occasionally (0+ / 0-)

                based on what I read (and from whom I read it). Used to take a multi-vitamin - generally regarded as unnecessary today. Vitamin D is generally good for a lot of things but research continues.

                Fish oil? That is the least proven of my supplements. It's good if you get it eating fish, fersure, but taken as a supplement? Maybe not.

                I USED to take selenium (bad idea), magnesium (unnecessary) and other stuff. The list gets upgraded continually as new info comes in. Everyone should do the same.

                Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

                by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:52:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's terrific that we all have the exact same (0+ / 0-)

                  genetic code and need the exact same and type of vitamins and minerals.

                  Back to my original point at the top of this comment thread.  That's great for you that you have a healthy digestive system and can obtain all of your nutrition from the foods you eat.  But it is suspected that people with a genetic susceptibility for MS have different nutritional needs from the general population.

                  http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/...

                  If my gut bacteria are impaired because of my genetic makeup and life history then yes, it makes sense both to take supplements specifically tailored to people like me and to avoid foods that might cause my digestive system to become damaged.  

                  •  Absolutely agree! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    cordgrass

                    I didn't even ding the "ketogenic" diet b/c of that. In the Atkins diet, it's a nightmare for most people but in some, MS maybe?, might be just the ticket.

                    Will take issue on the "exact same genetic code". It's close but even chimpanzees are 98% the same. Sure, there are differences in how we metabolize food and vitamins and minerals. Different requirements based on sex, variations in genetics, environment and age among other other factors.

                    Just took a course from a PhD biologist in micro-flora - mostly the gut but other places. It varies among people of different cultures and locations but also among gender and age, etc.

                    We did take, but stopped for lack of evidence, probiotics. I still think it may be a good idea, particularly if you've taken anti-biotics lately or maybe even generally. Lack of control and lack of good studies keep us from still doing it. And cost - they ain't cheap.

                    Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

                    by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 11:17:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, you can make your own probiotics (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TerryDarc

                      with some effort.  I am too lazy and instead buy Real Pickles products, but I also have a great pickling cookbook, The Joy of Pickling.  You have to pay money for food anyway, and this way you can eat delicious brined pickles and benefit from the fermentation, a lot more probiotics than you would get from a pill.  That is, as long as you don't have to worry about salt intake--brined pickles are obviously very salty.

                      For the potential weight loss benefit alone, I think a probiotic is a good bet.

                      I know they've only showed it in mice, but still, it can't hurt and it might help.

                      Beneficial metabolic effects of a probiotic via butyrate-induced GLP-1 hormone secretion.

                      •  No, probiotics can't hurt (0+ / 0-)

                        except your wallet. I watched a couple online videos on making your own probiotics and that, if the effort were worth it, would make sense: sauerkraut, yogurt, and even that ghastly tasting tea fungus (kombucha), etc.

                        There's a lot of skepticism and probably much deserved about many, many supplements in the form of pills. Getting your nutrients in the form of food is surely a better idea. Eating fish vs. taking a capsule is a good example.

                        Pickles w/o too much salt is a great idea but are there micro-flora in them? Much in any event?

                        Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

                        by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 11:46:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  There are two types of pickles (0+ / 0-)

                          There are vegetables pickled in vinegar, which do not contain probiotics, and there are vegetables pickled in brine (salt water) which are fermented by probiotics and contain exponentially more probiotics than you would get from a pill.  

                          Some people think the effort is worth it, especially with sauerkraut because cabbage is so cheap.

                          The problem with getting nutrients in the form of food is that some of us have compromised digestive systems and have difficulty doing that.  Also our farming practices have depleted the soil of many nutrients.

                          Eating fish vs. taking a capsule is actually a terrible example.  I wrote a book about fish oil so I know this.  To get clinically beneficial amounts of EPA and DHA you would need to eat more fish than is recommended for mercury safety, in other words, you should eat fish every day for heart and mental health, etc.  If our oceans weren't polluted with mercury and other pollutants, eating that much fish would be very healthy.  Today, not so much.  You are safer taking a fish oil capsule that has had the mercury and other pollutants filtered out.

                •  Regimen (0+ / 0-)

                  Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

                  by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 11:11:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Note that the NIH has NEVER ruled OUT a therapy (0+ / 0-)

              Hard to make a track through the jungle when you can't even cut down a single weed.

      •  Chemicals are the entire scope of healing (0+ / 0-)

        Usually they come from your own body. But sometimes your body needs some help.

        I'm glad you're a perfect human who stands alone without need of any help from anyone (how libertarian!), but I'm not, and without pharmaceuticals I would be dead.

        You know what they call a defendant who acts as his own lawyer? Guilty. The analogous situation with a patient and doctor is dead.

    •  I don't need a double blind study (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cordgrass, Fabienne, Portia Elm

      to prove that most middle aged Americans are addicted to pharmaceuticals. The next time you need a script, take a look at the drawers full of pharms at Walgreens.

      The amount of script writing is unconscionable. Tons of maladies could be avoided if people didn't take a prescription for every little bit of discomfort they feel. Tired? Take a pill full of three paragraphs of contraindications. Muscle ache? Fill up on Ibuprofen. Go ahead, they're only chemicals.

      Comparing medicine to auto mechanics is silly. But if you prefer filling your blood with toxic chemicals, be my guest.

      •  Too much ginseng is toxic to your liver (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TerryDarc

        Sassafras causes cancer in rats.
        There are numerous herbal remedies that are also toxic to your systems.

        If trees gave off WIFi signals, we would probably plant so many trees, we would save the planet. Too bad they only produce the oxygen we breathe.

        by skohayes on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 06:44:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I work with a child with Cerebral (4+ / 0-)

        Palsy and a number of other issues. She was having terrible problems with her skin. Went to Dermatologist. She barely looked at the child, ripped off 2 pre printed Rx, and left.
        We got her skin cleared up with a diet change.

        Only thing more infuriating than an ignorant man is one who tries to make others ignorant for his own gain. Crashing Vor

        by emmasnacker on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:04:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's great...but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dewtx

          The trouble is there is a lot of baby in the bathwater if you'll permit the metaphor.

          SOME alternative medicine is:
          a) Palpable BS - just cannot work with current laws of science. This deserves little/no time or money. Worse, this category prevents people (Steve Jobs, e.g.) from getting treatment.

          b) Probably doesn't work but could be tested if there are small proof-of-concept studies to back them up.

          c) Actually works and works better than Big Pharma stuff. This is a tragedy but as has been pointed out many times in this diary, there is a long trail of meds from plants, animals, fungi that can/have been turned into even more effective treatments by Big Pharma itself.

          Diet changes and herbal medicine can and do work. So does Lipitor.

          Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

          by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:03:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Natural =/= Non-Toxic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mconvente, TerryDarc
        •  Here, just for you ≠ (0+ / 0-)

          It's a real ASCII symbol you can fine by teh Google.

          You are correct in your assertion, btw.

          Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

          by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:05:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ah, the naturalistic fallacy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MichaelSF, dewtx, Catsmeat

        You know what are things are natural? Cyanide. Botulinim.

        "They're only chemicals"? Here's a question, and please don't take this the wrong way, but there's really no other way of saying it...

        What the flying fuck do you think "alternative medicines" are fucking made of?! Fairy dust?!

        Chemicals! They're made of goddamn chemicals! Chemicals that are supposed to have an effect on the body! If that's not how they work, then congratulations, why not skip taking the (naturally occurring)  chemicals and go straight to coming up with the magical spells which would be the only other way they'd have to work.

    •  If you don't wish to use it, don't. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cordgrass, Fabienne

      But the idea that lumping any kind of health care practice that one does not accept into "magic" is arrogant, fearful, ahistoric, and irrational thinking, in my view.

      Here's what falls or once fell into the rubric "magic" or alternative medicine:

      Vaccines, chiropractic, psycho-analysis, anesthesia, nutrition, midwifery, acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine (though, certainly not "alternative" to billions of Chinese over thousands of years), surgery, chemical pharmaceuticals, germ theory, homeopathy, hygiene, naturopathy, meditation, radiation, human transplant surgery, and on and on.

      I am not so cocky as to believe any one system of medicine or one practice of medicine is the cure all, for all things.  I have lived long enough, and live with those whose treatments for what ails them killed them, cured them, aggravated symptoms, or did nothing - no matter what the practice of medicine they chose, so I am less sanguine than you are that the is "one scientific way" and all other ways are either not scientific or "magic."

      What I am leery of is people making uniformed choices and profit as a component in healthcare (but that's a bigger conversation about how we understand our options and how we take profit out of healthcare).  How you choose to inform yourself, is something we may disagree on, but, ultimately your body is yours - whether to treat like millions of Chinese for thousands of years, or to use contraceptives or to choose chemotherapy.  

      "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

      by Uncle Moji on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:03:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Homeopathy is nothing but quackery. n/t (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TerryDarc, mikidee, Yahzi

        You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

        by varro on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:46:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you sound like an authority (0+ / 0-)

          how many double-blind studies have you conducted, and how much research have you done into the principles of Homeopathy?

          Only quacks and opportunists disparage what they do not understand.

          PRESENT Shock When everything happens NOW

          by Portia Elm on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:59:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  $1,000,000 (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            varro

            If you can get homeopathy to pass a clinical trial, I can get you a million bucks. For that matter, if let me rip the labels off a homeopath's supply cabinet and then demonstrate you can put the correct labels back on, I can get you a million bucks.

            As it turns out, we do understand homeopathy quite well. You just don't like the explanation.

          •  I'll leave it to other people... (0+ / 0-)

            ...to debunk homeopathy, real doctors whose mission is to educate people about quackery.

            Many of the most dilute (and thus, more powerful?) homeopathic products do not even have a molecule of the original substance in them.

            You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

            by varro on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  So was "germ theory", "sanitation", and the like (0+ / 0-)

          which was the point of the list, but I see that you disagree.  Luckily for me, my doctor washes her hands between patients and before procedures, even it once was considered ridiculous medical quackery.

          "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

          by Uncle Moji on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 09:57:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Amen! Uncle Moji? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Uncle Moji

          If it's a child being treated would your "If you don't wish to use it, don't" statement hold true?

          If you don't wish to use vaccines (e.g.) don't? I think you are more reasonable than that, reading your comments above.

          Every human being has paid the earth to grow up. Most people don’t grow up. And you find out what it costs us to love and to lose, to dare and to fail. And maybe even more, to succeed. What it costs, in truth.—Maya Angelou

          by TerryDarc on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:07:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My comments were for adults. I favor vaccines (0+ / 0-)

            for myself, my family, and for my dog (who is the most adorable creature on this planet).  And I strongly encourage everyone I know to vaccinate.  But, we both understand that vaccines are not law, and in many parts of the country, particularly with (interestingly enough) highly educated parents, there are those who have chosen not to vaccinate their children and have engaged in legal action not to do so, even if it means they must then home school or private school their children.  

            Again, I may agree or disagree with your choices or the choices of those people I believe needlessly endanger not only their children but others with the mistaken belief that vaccines cause a whole host of maladies and therefore refuse to vaccinate, but the fact remains as true as before "If you don't wish to use it, don't."  because all I can do is ask and support those who choose to do so, I cannot mandate that choice.  Our nation still allows for that free exercise of choice, however I may disagree with that choice.  Just as I may choose to use a mix of complementary medical practices that include vaccination and native Hawai'ian healing and music (I think music is underrated as a healing modality), even as I am not anyone's model of health or model of anything else.

            On a slightly different note, I have to say that I have always found the intersection of medicine and religious freedom to be one of the most interesting and compelling areas of law.  Since I am not a religious person as an atheist, I might be anticipated to side with science over the "voodoo" of religion (apologies to the Haitian Vodou faithful), but I understand that belief (also called the placebo effect) has some healing value that I cannot simply discount because it is not within my life choices.  I mean, more precisely, not the imposition of a religious belief on non-believers like Hobby Lobby, but the role of healing in believers.  I find it very curious and so very different from how I live, but I respect that I may not know everything or that not all my decisions are right for all others.  

            Thanks for the thoughtful response and question, I appreciate it as I am always open to questioning and re-examining my own beliefs on a regular basis.

            "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

            by Uncle Moji on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 04:42:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  ps Thanks for the encouraging words about my (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Greg Dworkin

            potential reasonableness, some days I, too, am not so sure.

            Be well!

            "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

            by Uncle Moji on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 04:44:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Electrical Engineering is the alternative. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude, Portia Elm, dewtx

      The do everything opposite of physics.  They started out assuming electrons went in the opposite direction than they do in reality.  They have kept up this silly delusion in all of their calculations and diagrams ever since.  This is the reason I couldn't stand EE classes after taking a bunch physics classes.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (135)
  • Community (62)
  • Elections (40)
  • 2016 (38)
  • Environment (36)
  • Bernie Sanders (36)
  • Hillary Clinton (31)
  • Culture (30)
  • Media (29)
  • Republicans (29)
  • Climate Change (27)
  • Education (23)
  • Spam (23)
  • Congress (23)
  • Civil Rights (22)
  • Trans-Pacific Partnership (21)
  • Barack Obama (21)
  • Labor (21)
  • Law (20)
  • Texas (20)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site